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 Replies: 41 / Views: 3,566 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2748 Posts |
I would like to think this could be an experimental planchet but I can't.
Annealing errors are favorites of mine but so difficult to attribute unless they are MS. My goal here is to make it easier to determine these errors with the help of tech like XRF.
Does anyone know or can check or can point me to info on XRF analysis of a normal looking 1997 (or other 90's) WQ and/or XRF analysis of a genuine improperly annealed planchet error on a 25c or 10c? Thanks.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
First I thanks to TROP to intervine. @ COIN: I see two different questions: 1. Quote:
I would like to think this could be an experimental planchet but I can't. When TB told, him say from the last report. In 2000 the Mint announce the Congress to change the alloy and present preliminary studies. Now how it work. The Mint look for 5,6 years ahead, so they start studies. In 1999 the Design of the Quarters change and they do the expectection of the Reserve. Also in 2000 all the presses go from Vertical to Horisontal strike. Do could be an innocent to think that they change those with out studies? No. Same it is with the report of 2000. the probablly start the studies far behind, I presume somewhere in 1995-1996. Any studies took time and lot of efforts. So my answer to you question will be after your second question. 2. Quote:
Does anyone know or can check or can point me to info on XRF analysis of a normal looking 1997 (or other 90's) WQ and/or XRF analysis of a genuine improperly annealed planchet error on a 25c or 10c? NO. The XRF will see the alloy composition. In order to see annealing spectrum will complete other technology and also it is no database for. Annealing spectrum enter the color of alloy (metal). The only place could be study it is the mint, and they never will loose the time with this for simple fact that differential it is just an event, as crack die, chip die or age die. after annealing the planchet could be influences by to manny factors to change the color. So this it is no important for the Mint. Was to cold, or too warm the flow of the air or the band is nothing. After annealing important are the physical proprieties of planchet in order to be struck. Conclusion: The XRF show the metalic composants, mean what your coin it is and do not analise color spectrum. Some case will show the oxides if are in quantity. The XRF will analyse trough 75% of the sample and we can not see but is go circular concentric. In my oppinion you post my first metalic experimental planchet I saw. I saw on facility but not in the wild. I took my medication in time and answer also so Good Night. Edited by silviosi
12/01/2023 02:36 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2748 Posts |
Thanks Silviosi, so the consensus with you and others here is that XRF can't help detect surface metal composition but rather takes a reading of most of the coin composition all together regardless of the layers? So this reading is unusual because it is 80/20 instead of 75/25 copper to nickel? At least I'm starting to understand albeit slowly.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Yes it is unusual because is 80/20 on total and the missing of the zinc which normal it is in the core alloy, The normal reading of an quarter must be on or maybe here the core been extracted from gold alloy has those residues of Silver and gold.
the XRF in the case of the quarters will pop-up the mention plated (cladded) and your xrf show just the metals with no mention of plated. Hope help better.
If was an normal strike clad the Xrf must show 8.33% nickel, 91.67% copper (from Mint specs) The clad it is 1/3 of the coin weight.
Edited by silviosi
12/01/2023 7:31 pm
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
Quote:
Me I say what I see after the XRF. Bullion guys has XRF which will tell you if the sample it is plated (cladded) or not. In this case no and their XRF is 2 cm potrussion of material (sample). 2 cm penetration depth? For metal alloys? What the heck is their beam source and focal point diameter? In fact, most commercial XRF instruments for testing alloys use a 50 keV tube that will create x-rays with energies up to a maximum of 50 keV. Increasing the beam source power does not give deeper penetration, it only allows one to access lighter elements. I use various types of XRF in my research (my real job as a research scientist), and I am highly skeptical of that penetration claim. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
@ SPP. Long time we do not have a conversation. Hope you has the XRF I recomended you 3 yers ago and you up-grade. No: to day XRF's ( I agree majority use 50 keV) but: The new XRF has the capability to mesure the EMF in the case of the alloys. Second do not forgot in our hobby the metals used are oxigenated metals which can facilitate the potrussions. EMF it is one of the main factors in determining the compositions. Not the only one. In the photo I will attach you can see a new generation of the XRF overal use by the bullion guy and manny laboratories. This generation I think it is transitional to SDX-DSX. Just think: if you do not have EMF, and not an concentric rotative reading, and 5cm lingot will be say gold, but in the center could be any other kind of metals. EX: bullion Canadian gold coins fake in China (my wife is Chinese and I excuse to her for saying this). All my best SPP  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2748 Posts |
I'm still interested in seeing what a XRF reading of a normal looking 1997 (or thereabouts year) quarter will read. As far as conclusions on this coin, I have been in communication with Mike and he agrees with my hypothesis that this is likely a circulated ( & environmentally toned) improperly annealed planchet error.
Thanks for everyones help with this coin and topic.
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Moderator
Canada
10463 Posts |
Seriously? You are talking about a simple jewellry analyzer. That thing only analyzes 22 elements. The instrument you showed would fail most of our XRF calibration standards. That whole instrument relies on a simple software package for alloys, and in particular is designed for precious metals, and is not designed for investigative research. How in the heck do you calibrate or adjust for secondary peak drift using that toy? These are some examples of the instruments I use: https://analysisdoo.com/products/xr...instruments/ and I would trust the results from a proper XRF analysis in a research lab over anything you would find in a jewellry store or coin shop. So in other words, you are telling me you know nothing about XRF analysis, without telling me you know nothing about XRF analysis.  "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Moderator
Canada
10463 Posts |
Quote:
As far as conclusions on this coin, I have been in communication with Mike and he agrees with my hypothesis that this is likely a circulated ( & environmentally toned) improperly annealed planchet error. I'd be willing to bet money that there is absolutely no Au, Ag or Pd in that coin. The percentages of Cu-Ni will change at the surface of the coin, given enough time and right environment conditions. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2740 Posts |
CoinHi has (unintentionally) misrepresented my opinion on this quarter. I do NOT think it was struck on an improperly annealed planchet. I think it's more likely that its brown coloration is entirely due to surface staining that occurred after it left the Mint.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Edited by mikediamond
12/03/2023 10:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2748 Posts |
Sorry Mike, I misread your earlier response.
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Moderator
United States
98548 Posts |
You might have something there coinhi - an improperly annealed cladded coin would allow for more copper content to migrate to the surface. (or so I have read)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
SPP I will answer you: What you give the link are laboratorry instruments. I use those even the first generations from I thing before you graduate. This do not matter. what is matter your speciality: roks. Sorry not same field and not same ball game. For the small XRF. It is thermal, took in consideration the EMF and do 22 to 45 metals detection. Accuracy?: 95%. For coins I need more? NO. tell me if it is plated? YES, tell me the metalic total composition? YES. Do I have to spend 60K for and DSX-SDX for an coin? The answer it is not. Quote:
So in other words, you are telling me you know nothing about XRF analysis, without telling me you know nothing about XRF analysis. They are 6 kind of the electronic testing of samples. which one you want to discuss with me? Different applications, different surveils, different studies. You show me just 4 in your link, you miss 2, sorry the science evolute. Edited by silviosi
12/05/2023 12:36 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4135 Posts |
Who will win?. I am collecting bets on SPP-Ottawa and silviosi, both are very intelligent, convincing and it is a close race. Put your money in my hat and let the betting begin.
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Moderator
Canada
10463 Posts |
Quote:
Who will win?. I am collecting bets on SPP-Ottawa and silviosi, both are very intelligent, convincing and it is a close race. Put your money in my hat and let the betting begin. Not going to happen. Assuming my research speciality is just "roks" is like telling me to stay in my lane (when I already belong in that lane). I find that whole statement irrelevant, offensive, and speaks of great ignorance. I am not taking the bait here. The staff here are growing quite weary of his ranting.   "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Posted 12/01/2023 02:32 am
