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 Replies: 22 / Views: 5,829 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
I also compared it to my St Gaudens. Then, I noticed that your coin is slightly mis-struck. Look at the distance between the stars and the rim on the right side. That could cause the stars by the Capitol to be shifted, as well as the Mint mark. At this point my jury is still out for authentication.
All that said, it could be the angle of your photo but, I don't think it is.
Edited by dsking
01/21/2023 5:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3652 Posts |
Better pics of obverse (and reverse) needed, as well as weight as previously mentioned. However, in addition to the things already mentioned, some of the other design elements just don't seem right, such as the details on Liberty's gown. Saint-Gaudens' monogram below the date looks off, as well, but that's possibly just the low resolution photo.
Member of SPMC, FCCB, ANA and ANS. My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/My U.S. Fractional Note Set: https://notes.www.collectors-societ...eSetID=34188 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
@kbbpll - great detective work!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
I too would like to see better quality photos as well. Also, better focused and more true to color if possible. Weight and diameter may be the tell-all but, I think that we all need to see some adjustments to the photos.
Perhaps a black background would help?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11897 Posts |
This looks fake. On the right is an authentic 1921 $20 ASG. Why does this coin look like liberty is falling over to the left?   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/21/2023 9:41 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
The date logo seems proof enough.
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Moderator
United States
189010 Posts |
 to the Community! |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11897 Posts |
Fakes use some transfer process to copy the design of the coin. Usually counterfeiters get the proportions right - the issue is loss of detail. I wonder what messed up transfer process was used to screw up the design so badly that Liberty looks like she's falling over compared to the other elements of the coin. You would need to come up with entirely new proportions in terms of distance between different elements of the original design to come up with this untidy new design.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
01/21/2023 10:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
Counterfeiters took the transfer process to a new level after 2008; many of the examples we traced back to a Chinese based group are in TPG holders as genuine. Duplications are so good you see every nick and mark from the genuine source coin. How they may have advanced from there makes me cringe at night... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
Here's an idea! Take both coins to a local, reputable dealer and get their take on them! They can measure, weigh and so forth and satisfy your curiosity. If they are willing to purchase them as being "real" well, there's your sign! :-)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
Quote:
Look at the distance between the stars and the rim on the right side. That could cause the stars by the Capitol to be shifted, The stars and their relationship to capitol are fixed by the die and do not shift by off center strikes. An off center strike can cause the star to get closer or father away from the edge of the coin. Note the gap between the star circled in blue and the column on the right. On the counterfeit copies the star touches the column. All Saints minted after 1907 appear to have the gap between the star tip and the capitol column. The OP coin is a counterfeit. Genuine 1921 (gap between star and column)  OP Example (tip of star touching column)  Known counterfeit 1921 by Bill Fivaz (tip of star touching column)  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
Quote:
The stars and their relationship to capitol are fixed by the die and do not shift by off center strikes. An off center strike can cause the star to get closer or father away from the edge of the coin. Note the gap between the star circled in blue and the column on the right. On the counterfeit copies the star touches the column. All Saints minted after 1907 appear to have the gap between the star tip and the capitol column. Good to know Slider23. Thank you so much for the info. I'm starting to wonder if the previous owner of those coins did, in fact, collect "Counterfeits". |
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New Member
 Australia
3 Posts |
Thank you for your input everyone. I'm learning along the way. I have now measured and weighed the coins and included obverse and reverse images (1908, 1919 and 1921). My scale only measured to the gram, not todecimal points of a gram. All coins were 34.2 mm in diameter and weighed 34 g. I hope the images are of suitable quality: Very much appreciate it. Dan       |
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New Member
Australia
3 Posts |
Based on the tips provided, it appears that the 1908 is genuine and the rest are counterfeit. Yes, I'll take them to a dealer, but the prior discussion is interesting :-)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
The obverse of the 1919 and the 1921 came off the same counterfeit die with a date change. The reverse die appears to be the same on both coins. Look at the tilted second T in trust. I also found a counterfeit 1913 that came off the same obverse die, but did not have the tilted T in trust on reverse.
On the 1908 D Motto, I found a genuine die that matched the obverse date and mint mark, but the reverse was not a perfect match. I did find a genuine reverse that did match, so It may have been a die change at the mint. The 1908 D appears to be genuine.
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Posted 01/21/2023 6:29 pm
