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Help With A Morgan 1881-S Obverse

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New Member

United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  5:27 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,
I recently purchased the 1881-s shown in the attached photo, and was wondering what people think of the long scratches/impressions. In my relatively short experience looking at Morgans (and specifically 1881-s coins), I have not seen something like this. Does it seem these scratches/impressions could have occurred after the coin was produced, or is this possibly a VAM that I have not found in my viewing of the VAM docs? Thanks in advance for any help with this.
--Rick R

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wheatchaser140's Avatar
United States
2368 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wheatchaser140 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like die scratches. Notice how the raised area goes through the fields and across the lettering, unlike a die crack that wouldn't affect the lettering. This isn't damaged. Can't comment on the VAM. Hope that helps! 😊
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Matteproof's Avatar
Korea, Republic Of
1881 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Matteproof to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely die scratches through PLU and RIB.
This one is really nice, I love those die scratches.
I looked in the Vamworld site but I didn't find matching one with the die scratches.
Can we get pics of the whole coin?
Seems like you have found a previously unkown VAM. VAM experts will help you.
Edited by Matteproof
09/02/2014 6:30 pm
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Wheatchaser and Matteproof,
I have attached photos of the full coin; it was graded MS64+ by PCGS. Perhaps I should submit photos to VAMWORLD, although I have not looked into the specifics of that process yet.
--Rick R

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CherreePicker's Avatar
440 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherreePicker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe I saw this coin in a recent ?Heritage Auction. The markings appear to extend through the the letters PLURIB. The letters would be incuse on the die. That would necessitate the "scratch" to extend not only across the field but also into the incuse recesses of the lettering.
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United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, CherreePicker, I did purchase this coin at Heritage on August 26, so the hi-res photos are still posted there. After you mentioning it, I can somewhat tell from those photos (and more so when I look at the coin at an angle) that the scratches (or could they be some sort of clashings?) do extend through the lettering. Thanks. --Rick R
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2014  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have also noticed that the first 8 is spiked and has a die chip between the loops on the right side, similar to VAM-75, although the die chip on this one seems even larger.
--Rick R
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. I really don't know what to think of this. I've never seen a scratch in the die of a Morgan like that before, and by this point one would have thought that such a prominent feature would have been seen before. After all, if that scratch is in the die, then there should be thousands of these in the wild.

And yeah, it's in a PCGS slab, but darn. I've seen a large number of coins that looked just like this. Every single one has had a knife dragged across the face of the coin. I'm left wondering if PCGS let a real problem leave the building with this one.

And think what it would take to scratch a die in the middle of a serif, like the P and U. It'd take a pinpoint which was also hard enough and moved with enough force to gouge a hardened steel die. I'm sorry, I'm not believing that.
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ASEnut's Avatar
South Africa
453 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ASEnut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It really pops, wow good looking coin
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United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the more that I look at the coin with my magnifiers and cheapo microscope, the more confused I am, partly since much of the longer scratch appears to be sort of doubled. As an absolute neophyte on this, I suppose that if these were die scratches (particularly the longer one), there would be too much damage to polish out, and the die would have been retired immediately(?) Is it possible to review die progression to interpret whether an obverse die change seemed to occur?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yes, the more that I look at the coin with my magnifiers and cheapo microscope, the more confused I am, partly since much of the longer scratch appears to be sort of doubled. As an absolute neophyte on this, I suppose that if these were die scratches (particularly the longer one), there would be too much damage to polish out, and the die would have been retired immediately(?) Is it possible to review die progression to interpret whether an obverse die change seemed to occur?


You can expect a knife blade to leave ridges of metal to either side of the blade when it cuts, especially in a soft metal like silver. That causes a "doubled" appearance. It's thought that die pairs which spent their entire working lives together were the exception rather than the rule, so frequently were they changed. It's a very difficult thing to tell because slight differences in annealing could lead to great differences in die life - you wouldn't know if that worn die you're looking at was soft steel which wore out after only 50,000 strikes, or it's a strong die reaching towards 200,000 strikes.
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, SsuperDdave, the more I look at the long scratch (and with 75x magnification from my viewer in combination with bifocals), it seems consistent with what you are saying. I notice that at both sides of the P and L, and left side of the U, the scratch does not quite touch the lettering, as if a sharp object scraped across (most likely left to right) and lifted a bit when it crossed the raised letterings. I suppose a die scratch would not do this, and would instead extend directly through the incuse of the lettering without any breaks in the scratch. Sorry to bother everyone, but on first viewing, the 'ridges' sure made it look like a die scratch. --Rick R
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United States
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 Posted 09/03/2014  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To my eye, excepting for the two scratches, this coin looks like it could be MS65-66; Perhaps PCGS docked it 1/2 point or so due to the scratches(?) Am I correct that scratches such as these, which are certainly not prominent to the naked eye, should not disqualify the coin from receiving a numerical grade?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To my eye, excepting for the two scratches, this coin looks like it could be MS65-66; Perhaps PCGS docked it 1/2 point or so due to the scratches(?) Am I correct that scratches such as these, which are certainly not prominent to the naked eye, should not disqualify the coin from receiving a numerical grade?


I've never seen a "die scratch" which actually extended into letters and devices. Those are below the surface, protected, on a die (which is a negative, of course). Nearly impossible to scratch.

The scratches on your coin, if they're postmint from some sharp object, are an absolute and instant disqualification from receiving a numerical grade. PCGS really blew this one if those are scratches. This coin should be in a Details slab.
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CherreePicker's Avatar
440 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2014  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CherreePicker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave that was my intial impression when I saw this coin in the auction and more so now. Per my initial post above "The markings appear to extend through the the letters PLURIB. The letters would be incuse on the die. That would necessitate the "scratch" to extend not only across the field but also into the incuse recesses of the lettering."

I'm sticking with my initial impression of PMD.
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United States
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 Posted 09/03/2014  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add roamerlabrador to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks SsuperDdave, I was wondering if your comment about instant disqualification implicitly refers to intentional scratches. In this case, I don't know if the two scratches seem to be intentional or not. (Perhaps it could have gotten scratched in a counting machine or some other handling process many years ago.) They are barely visible to the naked eye, and this coin still looks way better than any other MS64 Morgan that I own, and maybe even better than any MS65 that I own. If one of those scratches were on or near Liberty's face, I would have a whole different reaction to the appeal of this coin. Does this make sense?
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