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Replies: 31 / Views: 4,390 |
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Valued Member
Canada
495 Posts |
Jut wondering if a TPG company could technically end up in trouble with law if they grade counterfeits? [unknowingly of course] but you know what they say about ignorance when it is a legal matter....
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Technically ? yes IF a Gov. would prosecute for possession of a fake. or, if they grade a fake and certify it as authentic. of course unknowingly. a civil suit could emerge out of that for damages. BUT both scenarios are highly unlikely, as you agree to their conditions of doing business. And that includes that scenario. it would be different if a TPG would be a recognized and trained Professional. Which they are not. I believe they are purposely avoiding proclaiming themselves Professionals as that designation would suggest they be a trained, educated and experienced person in that respective field and hence, they would have a liability and would have to guarantee their work. When you use a TPG you are only paying for their personal and unquestioned experience and opinion and not for a "professional" opinion. Hence, NO implied liability.
Edited by 47P7 02/07/2015 1:24 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5394 Posts |
At the Pcgs counterfeiting course we took in Las Vegas in December this exact scenario did come up in the Q&A part and yes they do take back coins that have been found to be further identified as spurious. Michael Faraone who gave the course said that there are and can be liability issues when this happens He gave us a scenario where a 1955 double die had to bought back by Pcgs for its fair market value. The issue whilst technically criminal in nature is handled in a Civil way rather than criminal. Also surprising was the fact that PCGSreturns a questionably authentic or known counterfeit back to the submitter.They have no authority to seize the coin and send it to the US secret service. shocking that! It stills leave a counterfeit in the system .Nice!
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Valued Member
Canada
329 Posts |
weird, are the laws different in canada? my wife got a counterfeit $5 at arbys I think. she unknowingly went to spend it at wal mart, and they questioned it, asked if she had washed it with her clothes, where did she get it. when they told her it was counterfeit, they said they werent allowed to give it back, since she wanted to bring it to me so I could see if it was in fact counterfeit. I did end up going and looking at it,(it was cut slightly smaller than a legitimate one), but they did state again that they were not allowed to give it back.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
If a TPG were to not reimburse someone for a coin they graded as genuine which later proved to be fake, I imagine the reputation consequences would be more damaging than the legal ones. "Whoops, we messed up, but we won't make good" Would kill any business if it made its way to the press. And their legal obligations depend solely upon the contract the customer signed with them.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts |
Civil court yes criminal court no. There's tons of fakes floating around the judge or prosecutor might have one in their pockets unknowingly, anyone could...sooooo would it not be the feds own fault that so many fakes are around to begin with? With high powered lawyers these TPGs could afford to save their reputation (rightfully so) there would be no proof of intention to defraud anyone. And if they put out a few bucks to keep a client and everyone happy then sobeit. It would be criminal if they did this all the time, or did it intentionally but its bound to happen once in a while. Some fake coins are of such high quality even the experts are having a hard time telling them apart.IMO
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Pacific, please do not forget that PCGS does give a guarantee IF you pay a certain amount for their services. (I might be wrong though) Considering all your opinions, HOW would a customer be able to show positive proof that a TPG graded a fake? you most definitely would have to remove it from the slip/ slab and have it tested or whatever. That again would void any possible warranty a TPG would have attached. am I wrong with that assumtion?
Edited by 47P7 02/07/2015 6:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5394 Posts |
You are correct 47 they and ngc and Anacs do have some sort of guarantee. All I can say is that with the 1955 Lincoln double die they did look after, what happened was they received a few more with identical markers .They then contacted the submitter and told him to send it back for a refund. I would guess that if a person was concerned, all the major TPG do ahave a procedure in place. I am sure you have to send the suspect item back in the TPG holder and they would open it. The amount of money involved along with their collective reputations is too huge to mess with, I would think. Would be interesting to see what ICCS and CCCS have to say on this issue.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
^ The Chinese situation is a total mess in a lot of ways. You have counterfeits, Chinese companies making legit products that are branded by companies in North America, and Chinese making knock-offs of products that are made in China for western export, or selling direct to consumers.
I used to avoid China like the plague, but lately I've ordered items here and there. When people realize they can order stuff that is sold in stores here direct from where it's really made, they may do more of it as well. I owe no allegiance to companies that farmed their production out overseas, and that covers most of them.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
997 Posts |
In order to be prosecuted criminally in the USA for possession or passing a counterfeit there has to be intent. Did the person know, or should the person have known the coin or bill was a fake? In a commercial transaction made by a TPG of a counterfeit there may be civil liability even if there is no criminal liability. If it is an honest mistake it could be limited to just the fees and expenses of the owner, not any indirect costs (loss of value, potential profit etc.). If the trier of fact (judge or jury) finds that there are more circumstances at play then the award could be increased. I would suspect that for the most part Canadian laws and legal procedures are going to be fairly similar in these cases.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4591 Posts |
1cent - don't forget ghost shift. That is the factory officially only runs 1 or 2 shifts manufacturing legit goods for paying customers with properly licensed logos and such. Then somebody runs an extra 'ghost' shift using everything exactly the same (or not, maybe the raw materials are marginal rejects), except the product doesn't go to the customer, it goes into the grey market. http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918 <-- very much a techies explanation of the ghost shift problem.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Technically: how can there be ne criminal liability if possession is illegal according to the criminal code. Practically: there may be no prosecution because of the minute issue and the expense involved. But I believe repeat offenders will and should be prosecuted to the full extend of the law.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
BStrauss: we used to purchase knock-offs in HKG-Aberdeen at the market of nearly every interesting pair of high end jeans, with or without the original label. cost from $3 to $ 10 max. we had choices of nearly every high end piece of clothing. Later-on the Fake coin and shops started under the guise of money exchange shops. They are still there, but moved further away from the main stream traffic. recently I have personally seen the stacks and boxes of World-look alike fake coins in Hong Kong. prices are anywhere from $1 to $ 10 for real silver. AND if what you want is not in stock, they will have it within a few hours.. even deliver it to your hotel. I saw buyers from many nations, but most were Americans and German Speaking buyers. There is NO way we can stop this evil at the source. The only way we can stop or reduce the influx is political.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
Excellent article, BStrauss. I wondered how some of these grey market products were identical to the retail stuff...packaging, tags, etc. Makes more sense now.
47P7 you're right, but I fear we've made our own bed with the Chinese problem. The Canadian government made a horrible deal with China which is very biased to their side. We let them have the conditions they wanted, so they would bring their investment capital here. The politicians sold our resources out because they had dollar signs in their eyes. I don't believe at this point that right or wrong have much to do with what motivates politicians.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3049 Posts |
Would the slab get a "details" designation, for going off thread topics?
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Replies: 31 / Views: 4,390 |