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 Replies: 54 / Views: 4,807 |
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New Member
 United States
48 Posts |
I understand the debate on grading, but for me the coin has some unrealized potential. I don't have any intent to sell it, but there will be a pang of regret every time I look at the coin with the environmental designation. I know some see that as playing the grading company's game, thats fine and I understand that viewpoint. Also, preserving the coin by removing the corrosion is how I am looking at it. The modern cents can be so unstable once corrosion starts.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3281 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts |
Quote:
Sometimes you get a grade that is lower than what another would give it. Simple as that. Grading is an opinion. There is no perfect grade. It isn't math where everything has a defined unit and number, and equals something perfectly. Just like taste, each person has their own sense of what tastes good, and what doesn't. This is the definition of arbitrary. I will take it one step further, imo, because toning it damage(even if it improves the aesthetic of the coin), every coin that is toned should receive a details designation. You can say it has the details of a uncirculated coin, but you cannot say it is "Mint State" since it did not leave the mint in that state. Take this coin for example: http://goccf.com/t/379784It had previously sold as Ms64 BN. Someone bought it, did something to it to drastically change its appearance, then resubmitted it and got a grade of PF63. I will say it looks better but the drastic color change and the presence of new toning, suggest the coin has been messed with and should be labeled details. Nevermind the change from MS to PF. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3281 Posts |
Toning isn't damage though, at least, I don't consider it to be. And the TPGs are kinda weird about it too. Some coins with extreme toning get a straight grade, while sometimes slight toning will cause this sort to happen. With your logic, technically a coin that is well above MS60, say MS66, could've received a grade of MS67 but it had a ding from PMD. With your logic, that coin is not Mint State because the ding did not originate from the mint. Doesn't make much sense to me. You and I didn't create the grading system, William Herbert Sheldon did. Here's an example of how toning HELPED the grade: http://goccf.com/t/379274Again TPGs can be weird about it. Sometimes toning will hurt the grade, and sometimes it will help it. Either way, when you submit a coin like this, you're rolling the dice. Point is, this coin should be resubmitted imo. |
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Valued Member
United States
226 Posts |
I definitely agree for a resubmit to address any possible issues like active corrosion.
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New Member
United States
48 Posts |
Yes! Active corrosion scares me. It would be horrifying to watch this coin slowly decay.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts |
Taylorism: It is your coin and a nice one, it is of course up to you what to do. Quote:
Toning isn't damage though, at least, I don't consider it to be. Exposure to something has changed it. If you had a comic book and the sun had faded the cover but otherwise it was untouched, would you still say it was in Mint condition? It would happen to every one that was exposed to the same stimuli but not to one intentionally preserved. As to the coin you linked to, I would say that it was given such a high grade because the toning disguised the marks, which is why heavily toned coins often receive higher grades. Also I think that coin is misgraded, not only because toning is damage, but also because "Eye appeal is exceptional" is a requirement of is a requirement of a ms67 and disrupted uneven toning does not meet that requirement in my book. The Sheldon scale was also originally for copper coins. A copper coin must have its lustrous original color for it to grade 67 or above. So it would seem Sheldon also thought toning was damage. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4680 Posts |
My 2 cents.
I initially saw this as an AU coin. I would personally call this staining or discoloration over "toning", being thet the coin appears to have been circulated, and yes, may have come in contact with some kind of a substance.
@Taylorism, I agree with your logic. The small amount of corrosion on the reverse was obviously enough cause for concern to DETAILS the coin. 3 possible outcomes I see from this being conserved.
1. Comes back same grade, UNC DETAILS
2. Conservation does it justice and it comes back straight grade AU. ( IMO not an unc coin, but you never know.)
3. Comes back AU DETAILS.
I feel the first two are more likely, and since you plan on possibly holding onto this for some time, not getting it conserved does amplify the chance of that corrosion spreading.
Since it wasn't a coin you purchased or have X amount of money into, your only expenses are grading fees, I things it's worth it for what your end goal is.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3281 Posts |
Quote:
Exposure to something has changed it. If you had a comic book and the sun had faded the cover but otherwise it was untouched, would you still say it was in Mint condition? That is a very different scenario. Natural toning is considered attractive collectors and TPGs sometimes. No comic book collector would be happy to see a comic turn from white to yellow as far as I know. Well, I'll agree with you on half of that. I believe the coin was given a higher grade because of the toning, rather than that it covered up marks. Just based on patterns I've seen from PCGS, the company seems to favor toned morgans, and toned silver coins in general. And yes, I agree with you that it shouldn't have received the grade it did, but here we are. Same goes for the OP's coin. Fair enough, nevertheless, that system is used today for the majority, if not all modern US coinage. When it comes to toning, I don't believe it's damage. However, the thing that caused the damage, if it was given a large amount of time to continue to tone the coin, could lead to actual damage and corrosion. What I'm trying to say is that, for me, toning is the beginning stage of damage, but I don't consider it actual damage. If it goes over "the toning mark," then I believe damage starts to occur. In reality, these our are opinions. You believe toning is damage, I don't. I respect your opinion as you have supported your ideology very well. In the end, we are both coin collectors. Some coin collectors like toning, others don't. Some of us like to collect cents, others collect silver coinage. We're just coin collectors with different opinions, and I respect that. |
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New Member
United States
48 Posts |
It's funny for comics to come up because that's the other item that I collect. This same debate happens there when it comes to pressing comics, and the same complaints come up with the grading services changing standards.
I fully expect this coin to bump down to AU after the restoration, and was surprised at the UNC designation in the first place. I am only going to resubmit the coin if restoration is involved. If it comes back details still, at least I know the corrosion has been addressed. Hopefully the holder helps slow any corrosion as financially it will take a bit before I can afford to send the coin in.
Edited by Taylorism
08/22/2020 6:38 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
With respect, I cannot imagine any grader at any major service looking at this and not quickly checking "environmental damage".  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3281 Posts |
Interesting Taylorism. Well, good luck. Let us know what the results are!
Ah I see Coinfrog. That does make sense. The toning is quite significant and nearing the "overly toned" line.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3733 Posts |
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I fully expect this coin to bump down to AU after the restoration, and was surprised at the UNC designation in the first place. I am only going to resubmit the coin if restoration is involved. If it comes back details still, at least I know the corrosion has been addressed. Hopefully the holder helps slow any corrosion as financially it will take a bit before I can afford to send the coin in. PCGS has a forum as well, why don't you post the photos of your coin there, and ask the forum, what benefits your coin would receive from the restoration submission,..i am sure many of the people on there have more first hand info for you. |
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Moderator
 United States
56855 Posts |
Quote:
I fully expect this coin to bump down to AU after the restoration, and was surprised at the UNC designation in the first place. I am only going to resubmit the coin if restoration is involved. If it comes back details still, at least I know the corrosion has been addressed. Hopefully the holder helps slow any corrosion as financially it will take a bit before I can afford to send the coin in. That sounds like a great idea and probably what I would do. Please let me,us know the outcome. John1  |
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Valued Member
United States
182 Posts |
Nice find and congrats! I don't think there are too many of the 1992 close AMs out there.
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Replies: 54 / Views: 4,807 |
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Posted 08/22/2020 3:25 pm
