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 Replies: 46 / Views: 4,365 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1048 Posts |
OK, so I completely under-estimated you guys. I shouldn't have. Your batting average on early copper may be pretty low, but all of you are usually spot on with Morgans:  |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1273 Posts |
Yep, I'm completely happy with that grade.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Looks like most of us (not me), are pretty close to the grade.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18684 Posts |
Quote:
Your batting average on early copper may be pretty low i agree 100%. almost always undergraded. I'm thinking those chiming in on them dont actually collect them or have studied them and play follow the leader. in defense of those grades, early coppers have so many nuances including but not limited to strike and original planchet issues. on top of that I think the TPG's grade pre-1800 coins with more leniency but thats just from personal experience Edited by panzaldi
03/05/2022 08:49 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
In defense of copper grading, I would suggest that a fair bit of early copper has been overgraded by TPG's for awhile now, especially in VG and lower and the AU/MS grade ranges. So when OP or another poster shares a TPG-slabbed bit of early copper for grade opinions, the proffered opinions from those of us who do not agree with this trend will often be lower (and sometimes higher) than the slab grades. Of course, there are other collectors who think us EAC types are bit off our rocker, or just old-fashioned and obstinate in our grading, and that's okay too. (Yes, I have done a little bit of math in the form of spreadsheets comparing EAC grades listed in prior auction sales vs. TPG grades when those coins are resold in subsequent auctions.) Leaving that aside, I see no problem with the MS65 grade for this Morgan, and I think it would probably get a green CAC bean at that grade. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8938 Posts |
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Your batting average on early copper may be pretty low As panzaldi said, early copper is beyond complex. Even people who spend years or decades devoted to the very specifics of EAC will often disagree. I've had a single draped bust cent go from a PCGS VF-20, to an AU Details, to an XF Details. Those are 3 EXTREMELY different grades. Are all of those right or none of them? The odd thing is there's a good argument for all of those grades to be correct based on how you evaluate it and what you give priority. Planchet porosity, strike quality, surface condition, overall preservation, and presence or lack of active corrosion can wildly swing a grade. For example, let's say you have a beautifully preserved draped cent that in terms of detail would be an AU-53, but you can tell from the outset it had a very low quality planchet and as such has a porous appearance. Do you straight it at 53 even though it would never pass muster comparatively? Do you details it? If so, why? It came from the mint like that right? Or do you net grade it to say, XF-40 or 45 where it would have much more detail compared to others, but also worse surfaces. Such is the problem with EAC. Batting averages with it are never consistent and each coin should be bought or sold on its individual merits regardless of the numeric grade as that can often be misleading. I handled an absolute crisp example of an F-12 1795 Half Cent Let. Edge. Beautiful sandy brown planchet and an exceptional strike, well unlike any other F-12 I'd seen (sadly didn't have the chance to keep it), but it was clearly head over shoulders compared to every other Fine or even most Very Fine examples I'd seen, not only in terms of quality of preservation, but in terms of raw detail. In terms of actual wear it was an F-12, but due to the excellent strike, surface quality, and subtle contrast on the surfaces it LOOKED like a higher grade. Do you then give it a higher grade? I think not but some people probably wouldn't have had an issue slapping it in a 15 or 20 holder. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
We won't agree with this grade?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1694 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5397 Posts |
Comparing the grading of Morgan's to early Copper
not the same animal .
Most of us can grade Morgan's in 5 or 6 seconds and be within a
1/2 to a point of difference .
An early copper needs to be closely scrutinized to come up with
a reasonable grade . On copper the TPGs tend to overgraded
Compared to what us old timers were taught .
By the way I really did like the MS 65 Morgan in this thread
I added a plus to my opinion of 65 because of the appealing original look .
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1517 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18684 Posts |
Quote:
On copper the TPGs tend to overgraded
Compared to what us old timers were taught . and therein lies the rub. do you grade by todays standards or believe that the older standards were more accurate? do we know more today about these coins now assess them differently? if a coin under todays scrutiny grades 2 grades lower which one is the correct grade? is it left to the purchaser to determine the coins value? if so, then whats the purpose of third party grading? maybe the answer is the old-timers will grade by their standard and the new-timers by theirs and the grade and value are in the eyes of beholder. however the the topic of discussion was how copper seems to be under graded today. i think grape summed it up. "the odd thing is there's a good argument for all of those grades to be correct based on how you evaluate it and what you give priority", however that does not help the newbie to learn how to grade these. all it does is it tends to confuse them. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
In this thread alone the opinions for the Morgan's grade ranged from AU details/damaged to MS67.
The "Grading Question" is by no means endemic to early copper.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4680 Posts |
MS65 is right what I expected.
Assuming someone posts an image that accurately represents the coin (I feel you do @ pristine2); an MS Morgan is relatively "easy" to grade with accurate pics, versus EAC. To me, EAC, along with plenty of other series, are difficult to grade from images alone. It's definitely an in hand process bc of the variables others have mentioned.
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Valued Member
United States
484 Posts |
MS65. Wow. The coin has nothing to deserve a MS65.
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Replies: 46 / Views: 4,365 |
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Posted 03/05/2022 03:11 am
