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Author	Replies: 13 / Views: 1,448
wmurph New Member United States 4 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 5:54 pm I am not a "Collector" just interested in old coins. A friend who lightly dabbles in coins, asked me help identify a coin and its markings. I started looking thru coin references. I have been unable to locate the marking in references and on web sites. I found a coin very simular coin on the web, but "close only counts in horse-shoes". Any assistance would be appreciated. I hope I am using the correct terminology in my description of the coin. Am told coin is "Spanish Reales". Some references use the terms "Portrait", "Modified Pillar" or "Milled Bust" design. {the * = dot} Obverse: CAROLUS (Bust facing Right) III * DEI * G * 1778 * Interp. as: [ Charles III by the Grace of God 1778 ] ? The biggest noticeable difference is the "III" over the bridge of the nose instead of behind the crown of the head as shown in most references of 1778 coins. I have also read some about the importance of the "C" in Carolus and where the printing starts in relation to it's position of the shoulder and hair/pony/tail. ( I presume to help id a forgery ? ) Reverse: HISPANET INDREXCº[* dot under the little o]GRG* Interp as: [King of Spain and the Indies * mint mark * denomination * and the assayer initials ] ? Unable to identify the mint mark {Co} in any references; determine the coin denomination {G}, and the assayer marks {R*G}. The "Pillars of Hercules" with the Spanish Shield and Crown are also on reverse. Motto on the banners on the pillars bear PLUS VLTR [abbrev for Plus Ultra (More Beyond)]. Also the outer edge around the coin has the alternating O and rectangle design. Well....all this is what I THINK I KNOW... Any information or references,would be appreciated... Thanks...wm ( Coin was Scanned on computer, pictures attached ) >Edited by bobby131313 to show pictures in post< Edited by wmurph 07/27/2006 5:59 pm Report this Post to the Staff

kuhli Valued Member United States 230 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 6:17 pm quote: Originally posted by wmurph Unable to identify the mint mark {Co} in any references; Cº is the mintmark for Cuzco, Peru. Report this Post to the Staff
dsking Pillar of the Community United States 2365 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 6:19 pm I would say that it is a 2 Reales, "Spanish Milled". Whether it is genuine, another member more knowledgeable will have to chime in on that one. In the meantime, try a Google search for Carolus III - you'll find info. And yes, the Mint is Peru. (I wasn't quick enough). Edited by dsking 07/27/2006 6:21 pm Report this Post to the Staff
bobby131313 Forum Dad United States 24163 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 6:51 pm I'm sure Swamperbob will see this soon, then you will probably have enough info to make you and your friend's heads explode. [:0] Shop CCF Members on eBay. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 7:42 pm Thanks to bobby131313 for pointing this out. The very brief answer is that what you have is a Fantasy issue. A coin that never actually existed. The reverse die with the King's portrait has Spanish not Colonial legend placement, but the obverse die is clearly a "copy" modeled on the Colonial standard obverse. Spanish convention calls the side with the name of the country the Obverse and the date/portrait side the reverse. That seems backwards to a collector from the US. The letter fonts are incorrect for either Spanish or Spanish colonial. For example the 7 in the date is a numeral with serifs at the tail. That is NEVER seen on Spanish coins or Peruvian for that matter. The mint is an attempt at Cuzco, Peru except that the mint was always shown as a monogram. Peru did not use the First letter capital with a superscript format. That standard is seen most often in Mexico. There is no denomination at all - the "G" is meaningless. The assayer initials "R.G." are neither Peruvian nor Spanish. They were seen on Mexican issues from Zacatecas which is a very commonly copied coin. The coin itself appears to be white metal and is either an injection molded piece or was struck in a collar. The rim is too high and the dentils are wrong for the period. The Portrait of King Charles is clearly the same one seen on the Chinese copies of the 1776 Mexican 8R. If the coin is the size of a silver dollar, I would bet it weighs roughly 21 grams and that the edge is reeded \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|. The correct edge is the circle square colonila edge. I would appreciate knowing more about this coin as it is NOT one that I already own. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 7:47 pm I just located the obverse of this coin in my files. It is mated with a 1790 Colonial reverse die but my notes indicate that the coin is a Modern Chinese product. My copy has a lotus edge which is also wrong. I picked up my copy in 2005. If I can find a scan of my copy I will post it. Report this Post to the Staff
wmurph New Member United States 4 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 7:50 pm Thanks to everyone.... Swamperbob--the edge of the coin is alternating O and rectangles. So, is your thinking that this is a counterfit? wm Edit: a gentleman that used to travel mexico, spain, portugal, and europe obtained coins many years ago. When he returned, he just locked them in a safe. While watching a friend e-bay for birth year coins, the gentleman's family said "look at these" dug out the safe and said what are they? thats how it all started.... Edited by wmurph 07/27/2006 7:55 pm Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 7:59 pm Here is the one I own. Image: 1790 Co G RG Fantasy Chinese.jpg 28.32 KB My copy is a lightweight white metal fantasy made by injection molding in China within the past couple decades. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 8:06 pm Technically you call these things "Fantasies" but they do fall within the general category of Modern Counterfeit. They are collectable items but for minimal amounts because the molds may still exist in China. I have a very large collection of counterfeit 8R coins and am always looking for new material. The edge on your coin has been corrected to at least show the correct pattern which was in fact the circle square design. Are there any traces of the seam from the molds? Report this Post to the Staff
dsking Pillar of the Community United States 2365 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 8:50 pm Yup, Swamperbob strikes again with his expertise! Report this Post to the Staff
wmurph New Member United States 4 Posts	Posted 07/27/2006 9:52 pm OK Swamperbob... You just cleared my frazzled brain... I will get the coin again and look at it closer look under magnification. I will keep you posted....thanks....wm Report this Post to the Staff
gxseries Pillar of the Community Australia 3831 Posts	Posted 07/28/2006 11:35 am Counterfeits exist from the time such designs were made, so it doesn't matter when your coin was possibly obtained and such - unfortnately counterfeits still exist in present days so it's pointless to debate whether your grandfather collected it or not, as counterfeits did exist at that time. My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month. Report this Post to the Staff
wmurph New Member United States 4 Posts	Posted 08/01/2006 09:43 am Swamperbob, I got a look at the coin again. I see what could/would appear to be molded lines/marks, especially around the outer edge/rim of the coin on the pattern of O's and squares design. I also read that the modling process can transfer markings that appear as scratches on the flat surfaces, ie. around the area of the portrait/bust of the coin. This coin also appears to have these types of marking also. Should a TRUE Carolus III coid be magnetic? This one is highly magnetic... This research/learning has been highly informative and interesting. I guess most common folk, like myself, only thought of counterfits as being on paper. I never considered of it being in coins...let alone the "recarving" to try and increase value and the "moving of the metal" to change dates, etc... wm Edited by wmurph 08/01/2006 09:44 am Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 08/01/2006 10:17 am If the coin is magnetic - it can not be real. I always keep a small coated magnet handy to check coins. Very few real coins made before 1900 will be magnetic. The ferro-magnetic metals normally encountered are Iron (or steel) and nickel. Most people don't remember from their school science class that nickel is magnetic. I suspect that your coin is a nickel alloy because iron counterfeits are rough on the dies and cause rapid Die Deterioration. An alloy of copper and nickel can be magnetic and it makes a very good substitute for silver. Most starting collectors do not realize that coins are counterfeited as well as paper money. I found out when I was about 10 years old when I got a copy of the 1944 no P "Henning Nickel" while hunting through change for silver nickels. The idea that someone would forge a 5 cent piece was remarkable to me and it got me started learning about counterfeits. The subject is complex and also involves alterations as you noted. I have been hunting for forgeries for about 48 years now and I am still learning. It can become a lifelong passion. Report this Post to the Staff
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