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F15/F16 Grade Designation

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Valued Member

Canada
94 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:19 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add cbu to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
At one time, I did not give it much thought ... other than it seemed rather uneven in its placement within the accepted scale...

VG8 add 4-points = F12 add 3-points = F15 add 5-points = VF20...

So, for some time now ... I've been using F16 in its place and my reasons seem clear to me, but appear to be a personal slight to others for some reason...

VG8 add 4-points = F12 add 4-points = F16 add 4-points = VF20...

Should it really matter to others which is utilized?

dts..
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ericmckeown's Avatar
United States
379 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ericmckeown to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wouldn't bother me any. But there are some real sticklers out there.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
576 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tamarin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Must admit when I see F-16, and I do, that I'm dealing with a rookie. Same with AU-53 and MS-61. They're just grades that don't seem to have much acceptance in the larger numismatic community. Whether it's valid or not, they raise a flag for me.
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Pokermandude's Avatar
Canada
1192 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pokermandude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Sheldon 70 point grading scale is archaic anyway. I actually prefer the British system the best. There's Fine, Very Fine, Extremely fine along with the qualifiers "about" and "good" for each grade, which translates to a +/-. So you end up with a scale that goes, about Fine (F-), Fine (F), good Fine (F+), about VF (VF-) etc. This is much more intuitive to me than the nearly meaningless numbers after the grade.
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kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen F15 and F18 used but can't say I've ever come across an F16 before (speaking coins here and not airplanes!). As a general rule I don't care what you say it is other than as a guide to what you think its value is. If I don't think it's worth that price I just bid what I do think it's worth or move along. :-) If I do end up owning it I'll assign my own grade to it. IMHO the scale runs up to 70 and you can use any number in there you like. Nothing says anyone else has to agree with you (unless you're a TPG of course).
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amida17's Avatar
United States
4897 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The systems seem fairly compatible to me....just depends if you speak "the Kings English" or "American English".

British Grade USA 70 point equivalent Notes
Poor P1
Fair F2
About Good AG3
Good G4 - G7
Very Good - About Fine VG8 - VG11
Fine F12 - F14
Fine+ to Good Fine F15 - F19
About Very Fine VF20 - VF24
Very Fine VF25 - VF30
Very Fine + VF31 - VF34
Good Very Fine - About Extremely Fine VF35 - VF39
Extremely Fine EF40 - EF44 Sometimes called 'XF40' not 'EF40'
Extremely Fine + EF45 - EF49 Sometimes called 'XF45' not 'EF45'
Good Extremely Fine AU50 - AU54 The lower American 'About Uncirculated' (AU) grades are allowed to have a little wear so this prevents them being a British AUNC.
Good Extremely Fine + AU55 - AU57
About Uncirculated AU58 - AU59
Uncirculated MS60 - MS62
Select/Choice Uncirculated MS63 - MS64
About Brilliant Uncirculated MS65 - MS66
Brilliant Uncirculated MS67 - MS69 Usually full lustre
FDC MS70 Unobtainable with mass produced coins.
Proof Proof Not a grade of course, but a specially stuck coin using special dies etc.






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LaureateBust's Avatar
Canada
331 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2012  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LaureateBust to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
VG8 add 4-points = F12 add 4-points = F16 add 4-points = VF20...


This argument, to me, implies the 60-point circulated grading scale is linear, which it doesn't seem to be (and don't forget VG10). I assume grades like F15 have evolved because graders could discern enough difference between F12 and VF20 to warrant an intermediate step. Why they assigned that grade the number 15, and not 16, I don't know. In every other case the intermediate grade was numbered half way between major grade intervals, so you have a point. So 15 has become the standard, and standards help us compare coins of similar grade to one another. For that reason, I expect to see F-graded coins assigned either a 12 or a 15. Maybe the people that take exception to F16 think you're grading that coin higher than F15?
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cdcoinman's Avatar
Canada
372 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2012  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdcoinman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good observation nonetheless my dear Watson.
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1cent's Avatar
Canada
1051 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2012  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1cent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
F-16 is the logical choice for a F-VF. In every other instance, a split grade is exactly half way between the other two grades.


Quote:
Same with AU-53 and MS-61


PCGS uses both of these on a regular basis, as do most US TPG's.
Edited by 1cent
07/01/2012 11:30 am
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Canada
1984 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2012  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Smallcentguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the only F-16 of which I am aware.



F15/F16-Grade-Designation

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dialog_gvf's Avatar
Canada
1581 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2012  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dialog_gvf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I think the main matter is that for all the other circulated grades, the mid-grade is EXACTLY half way between grades.

G-6 (G-4 to VG-8)
VG-10 (VG-8 to F-12)
F-15 (F-12 to VF-20)
VF-30 (VF-20 to EF-40)
EF-45 (EF-40 to AU-50)
AU-55 (AU-50 to MS-60)

It seems unlikely that graders mean exactly F-15 (or F-16). They mean "between". In fact, I would expect a theoretical VG-11 becomes an F-12 as does a F-13. Grades snap to the closest number.

AU-58 is another example of non-exact grading. It's a grade that basically means mint state except for extremely small indications of rubbing at the high points.

Also, because VF-EF is such a large jump, VF-25 and VF-35 are sometimes used.


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19 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2012  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add medaldetector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In his 70 point grading system, Dr Sheldon was attempting to equate the value of Early Large Cents by using a numerical grade. To accomplish this he first determined the value of the various Cents in what he called "basal" state. This he defined as "identifiable and unmutilated". For basal state he assigned the numerical grade 1 (one). Everything from here on is predicated on the basal value. By examining auction records and dealer price lists, along with a little interpretation on his part, he determined that a coin grading "good" was worth four times basal so he assigned the numerical grade 4. For a coin grading "fine" he determined that it was valued at 12 times basal and assigned the numerical grade 12 and so on up to "perfect uncirculated" which he determined to be 70 times Basal. So in effect, the 70 point system was chosen because it provided the multipliers he needed for his system to work (in most cases) with regard to common dates and varieties that were readily available.

The mid points are coincidental, not meaningful within the original "muliplier" process. Fine 12 is the accurate math process he suggested. Deviating from perfectly useful and accepted norms is just perverse and needless as with some other questioning of nitpicking types.
Valued Member
Canada
94 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2012  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cbu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me, all coins fit into two categories ... either I like the coin or I don't like the coin...

Outside of my own personal approach on the matter ... enters the unknown factors of others and their viewpoints ... thus I have learned to identify with the common-ground that does exist within the hobby and make every attempt to employ same, when speaking with fellow hobbyists...

The F15/F16 subject came about for me when I finally got-up-the-nerve to ask of someone (long-time coin shop owner, now in his 70's), why he has F16 as a grade designation on some of his coins-for-sale...

Because, up-to-the-point of my asking ... I thought that the F16 simply meant the coin was a little-bit better than an F15 and truth-be-told, I thought it was a little petty to mark a circulated coin in this fashion...

But, when I asked and I was provided with the answer that I was ... it made perfect sense to me...

I do appreciate all that has been shared here and it's all good in my opinion...

dts...

"Limiting an answer to our own thoughts, based on our own experiences, is not always the best answer"-dts
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Canada
576 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2012  11:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tamarin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pity though that in our quest to stabilize intermediate grades, we can't also be vocal about stabilizing their prices. You would think a coin caught exactly inbetween two grades would be easily valued. That it should hold 50% of the ascent. Never happens.
Valued Member
Canada
94 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2012  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cbu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

tamarin; pricing is a "pity" all the way-a-round in my opinion...

Firstly, I will make the statement that ... setting pricing is no easy task for those that do such...

As we tend to focus our attention on that which irritates us and not so-much on the things that please us ... our points to be made, are often viewed by others to be negative, rather than constructive...

Along with the various pricing concerns that many may have, are the actual coins that make-it-into the lists ...

I believe that "price-lists" should not be taken as being the "Affirmed Law" of-the-hobby, as the hobby has no duly elected-body or constitution ... price-lists are nothing more than a "suggested retail" wish-list in my opinion...

I've put-to-the-test many of the "suggested price" listings and have found there to be some that are over-priced, some that are well-priced, some that are under-priced & some that are just plain harmful...

I find it best to embrace the price-lists as a reference-starting-point ... to assist me, to make my own decisions...

dts...
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dialog_gvf's Avatar
Canada
1581 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2012  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dialog_gvf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:

You would think a coin caught exactly inbetween two grades would be easily valued. That it should hold 50% of the ascent. Never happens.


Actually, I've always found this to be too simplistic. It depends on the nature of the pricing gaps.

If you look at Newfoundland, it is frequently the case there is a gap-up pricing between grades. For example, let's look at the trends of a 1882H 20c:

G-4: $11
VG-10: $18
F-12: $30
VF-20: $70
EF-40: $400
AU-50: $850

So, rather common looking pricing until suddenly the coin looks like it is a semi-key.

Now, why would a VF-30 be properly priced at exactly half way between VF-20 and EF-40? The market is clearly indicating a grade rarity difference exists between VF-20 and EF-40. So, you would think that it is possible the VF-30 should be much closer to EF-40 than VF-20.

Now, psychologically, it might be the letter grades are like $N.99 v. $(N+1).00 where people are willing to pay a major premium for EF-40, whereas they simply will not pay it for VF-35.



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