A Warning To Buyers

It is an absolute shame that the old bloke didn't have access to the Internet in the early days or a network of collectors that are assembled here on CCF and other sites to advise and warn him before he got stiffed with the fakes

Its a horrific story! I buy coins from dealers all over the world. One noticeable difference between the German speaking Coin dealing world and the rest is pretty impressive Many of the well established dealers offer life time guarantees meaning that should ever the coin prove to be a fake the company will take it back at the original purchase price. Of course if this happened after 10-20 years it would mean a loss but not so large as the one in this story.

For me though this "life time" guarentee enforces a different attitude to sales and attribution/identification of coins. Effectively it makes dealers stand behind their products. The First time I purchased from an Auction in USA ( I think it was Bowers) I was most uncomfortable with all the disclaimers in the terms and conditions. In comparison to my mainland European buying it made me feel very exposed and really made me doubt the company's expertise. Of course in the US that "Life Time" Guarantee service has been taken over by the TPG companies....and the risk has passed from the dealer to the TPG. I for one have more confidence when the dealer has to bear the Risk. Of course nothing beats buyers research.

Weight of this coin: 10.38 gr.

Bob, is this one you had seen? I bought it from an US seller on ebay about 2-3 years ago. I have another 1911 half dol., looks ok but found a bit debased by S.G.

austrokiwi





I have discovered that the TPG does NOT assume the risk in all cases. When a coin in a slab is verified as a counterfeit or if there is another problem that requires a refund, the TPG contacts the last seller and works their way back until they recover the money from someone they can bully. The TPG's rarely pay out of their own pocket for their errors.

The problem with this method becomes apparent when you run a business. If a dealer submits a coin the TPG makes a presumption that the coin is Genuine and Unaltered. They certify the grade and confirm the other two facts. The guarantee is still by the dealer.

Therefore when someone makes a claim for a coin that was doctored (cleaned) and then submitted for grading by the PREVIOUS owner of the shop - say 8 years ago, guess whose door the TPG knocks on. The current owner and they are expected to pay the TPG for the error. It happened at the place where I help part time. It resulted in one payment and an immediate name change.

That is why the guarantee is only so so.

A second example: NGC holders a coin for a private collector who dies. Subsequently the executor places the coin with a reputable Auction House for sale. The coin sells to another collector for $1,000. A few months later the coin is recognized as a worthless forgery.

NGC is contacted about a refund. But the owner that had the coin certified is dead. So does NGC pay - heck no they threaten the Auction House? and want them to make good for the $1,000.

The private collector wants to stay anonymous and not to cause problems for the Auction House that sold it last so he withdraws the claim.

NGC revokes the certification for the coin but does not have possession of the coin.

Then the coin is re-sold. There is NO GUARANTEE at all. If the next buyer tries to get the guarantee paid - he gets NOTHING.

Moral - always check the certification number to see if it is actually VALID. A slab is really not much of a guarantee at all.

That is a lot of trust.

I don't often find counterfeits on the European auction sites at what I feel are reasonable prices. They seem far higher. Even on common stuff.

My coffee hasn't cut in this morning: Your saying that when you see counterfeits for sale in Europe that they are much more expensive than in the US?


I was thinking about the TPGs more. If I was a US dealer, every time I sent a coin into a TPG I would send with it a standard letter stating that The coin is being sent for grading and Authentication. That way if at a later date the TPG comes knocking "saying you sold a fake" pay up! I would reply " You were asked to authenticate the coin you authenticated it you pay. Swamperbob I guess you will now tell me they have that covered in their terms and conditions!

austrokiwi The TPG's cover the issue of a "special" request which is what you propose by EXCLUDING all claims for services except as stated in their own boilerplate agreement.

Remember a clerk reads your letter and no matter what you try to get them to do - they do only what their agreement claims to do - which is NOTHING. They give a "subjective" opinion on the grade of the coin BUT qualify that by saying that in the long run it is only an OPINION.

You basically pay up front for NOTHING except for aggravation later.

There is no doubt at all that the NGC actually encapsulated the counterfeit coin I discussed. They simply lacked the expertise to do the job well. Although I had never seen a coin of the specific type in the holder I was able to detect it was a forgery by the way it was made and a simple impossible physical aspect I saw on the coin's surface.

The current owner of the shop where I help out part time with authentications applied to NGC for employment a few years ago. But after visiting and interviewing he rejected the job offer. His impression was that they were interested only in fast turn around times and competence with grading US coins focusing on the MS grades. He felt that it was underpaid and high pressure. He did not like the prospects.