MS-70 + Or *

In terms of the original arguement of a plus grade for MS70 it will never happen and I support it's exclusion whole heartedly as it just doesn't fulfill the purpose of the Sheldon system. In terms of the star grade I personally do not see why not if a beautifully toned MS70 crossed their desk it would need to be seperated from the rest of the MS70's.

If it doesn't warrant a Star or a +, it's not a 70. That's a precondition of the grade in addition to a physically flawless surface.

Because youre using the same 70 point scale as was used before. Grades have been added in the middle from the old days, but the lowest and highest have remained constant since the scale came out.

But to answer your question directly yes 70s would be worth less if 71s are possible. Take the 2011 Commemorative Army Half. PCGS has no MS 70s for that so 69 is the top grade. Well that 69 is a 40-50 dollar coins when the top 70s are usually a 80 or more. That doesn't even get into the fact that some of the old 70s would probably get that 71 which essentially crashes the value of most moderns and thus would be the end of the fragile modern graded coin market.

Again though examining coins on an electron microscope level just isn't necessary. Thats splitting a hair into a million different pieces. If you cant see it on a 10x loupe it doesn't exist. Otherwise theres always a higher magnification you can go to to keep trying to find things no one could ever see without research quality microscopes.

Now the one thing where super magnification like that could be useful might be that you could potentially tell which coins are likely to get future milk spots. If you could use it to weed out coins like that that werent washed properly I'm all for it, as far as a grading tool though its just unnecessary unless human eye sight drastically improves.

basebal21
I agree with you (to a point), you cannot see microscopic details and flaws. But collectively you do see them as they form details such as shine, lustre, cartwheels, diffraction gratings, lenticular effects etc. So removing microscopic defects or adding microscopic features will alter the appearance of a coin, not in a tiny amount (like between MS66+ and 67) but by a huge amount.
MS70 is like 24k gold, in theory you cannot go higher but in practice it has increased from three 9s to 99999. When gold becomes ultra pure (a few more 9s) it doesn't handle like normal 24k gold (it is literally as soft as play dough and you can reportedly press your fingerprints in it). Think what a coin could look like if struck on a pure blank. Still only MS70?

basebal21
You cannot see see an individual bacteria but collectively you see them with the naked eye. Same with microscopic features on coins, you don't need a microscope (or a loupe) to see (collectively) things like diffraction gratings, a feature that mints couldn't do a generation ago, so what feature (holograms?) will be added in another generation?
Die surfaces can still be improved, new alloys, new surface finishes (diamond coated?) and new engraving techniques could make the dies much better.
I'm sure in 1905 they thought coins were perfect, then a fellow made ultra high relief dies and the bar was raised, same could happen again.

As it was originally defined, way back in the stone age of the late 70's, a MS 70 coin can have no visual imperfections at a 5X magnification.



Remember it was just a few years ago they were floating the idea to change the grading scale to a 1 - 100 system. Everyones coins would all have to be regraded. Otherwise when you went to sell how would your old MS 68 compare to my MS 89.

Just a thought....

I see/feel that many people here on the forum are a diverse group of coin collectors, some more than others, I also feel everyone has the same concept or passion for coins, some more so than others. They are well involved in ALL aspects of the varying nuances the Numismatic World provides for us to further the on going Knowledge base We all have some degree of understanding of, some having a better or more experienced level of knowledge than most. That said, I would like to put a notion out for thought.

I have been using the Dr Sheldon Grading System or familiar with it since the late 1960's, the system that was originally developed in 1949 for the grading of Cents, and since then the grading World and TPG'S have adapted the use of the system for ALL coins.

I always wondered how the Dr came to have the number 70 as the top grade........The Red Book defines the term (MS-70) as Perfect Uncirculated-Perfect new condition, showing no trace of wear, the finest quality possible, with no evidence of scratches, handling, or contact with other coins. Very Few regular issue coins are ever found in this condition....
I know there are people who would ONLY entertain the "I only buy slabbed coins", some even would only have to have the first release, or first strike, or CAC labels or NOT buy the coin at all, this is just a fact and IF people wanted to collect purple flowers, well more power to them, I mean to say what ever people wish to collect or have is what this site is all about, now.....
I would ask, does a coin struck with a tiny dimple, or imperfection on the dies striking coins exclude those coins from being graded a MS-70, even a new die which was just put into production and was found to have "this problem" on the struck coins. After all this condition is not wear, it is not from scratches, contact with any other coins, nor is it from handling ?" the finest quality possible"? Given, the fact that some MS-70 coins "may look better" than others of the same grade.

I like many of you have seen my share of "perfect coins" graded MS-70 and had one or more than one of the above conditions present on the coin, visible with no loupe or magnification, so why is it a far fetched concept that there would be Many types of a MS-70 coin, for that matter why could there not be room for a better than MS-70 condition, I know this concept would send people scrambling with their slabs and wondering how this could happen, I am suggesting Why could there NOT be a grade higher than the MS-70 or higher than the PF-70 coins.

I think this idea has potential for many directions, some being chaotic and some being simple and open to options. I mean to say, why does the system go to just 70 being the grand highest grade given out for coins?

I understand the ramifications and circumstances, but I like the notion, the idea of seeking answers outside the box, outside the "norm", I think the idea has and shows insight and challenges "the system" as We know it, I know there will be people with opinions pro and con, but the subject came to me upon seeing this topic, what are your thoughts? Just A Thought.......EDITED, I appreciate SsuperDdave's corrections,The man is a wealth of Numismatic Knowledge, I researched again the Dr William Sheldon Coin Grading Scale, and by him placing the Grades along side the values of Cents, his determination being that a poor coin vs an UNC coin the Unc coin was approximately worth 70x's more in value than a poor conditioned coin. I also left out that until the mid 1980"s the TPG'S took on and agreed to keep the Dr's scale in effect.. Thanks again Dave........