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 Replies: 10 / Views: 1,624 |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
I think it important that everyone in this hobby read this thread on FORVM: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/bo...opic=98657.0This should apply to all ancients collectors, even though for many of us, myself included, such coins are out of reach. One comment on the thread stood out for me: Quote:
To put it straight to the point - accepting that this is just my opinion -, this is just the beginning.
I clearly see a lot of houses (that I suspect in difficulty) increasing this kind of practises and a general "relaxing" in analysis of the coins in a lot of houses.
Let's put it clearly : this is a bubble (not so much the traditional dealer's usual business but auction houses with a very few exceptions) and, until it blows out, the show will go on (although, like a market's chart with ups & downs but with an increasing volatility).
I'm almost off the auction houses and just looking at a very, very limited amount of traditional dealers, well basically the good old stuff.
BTW, we should have a VIX for Numismatics or num. practises : don't short it, it is up and sharply. I think this is probably a very astute summation of the present problem. Although what this debacle exposes is the problem at the top end of the market, like any huge bubble, it can be assumed that the distortion of the market by corrupt practices is effecting all levels and I personally sense that our more humble areas of interest are similarly affected. There is an absolute ton of money flowing through the illegal aspects of the coin collecting market today and the tentacles of organised crime are spread far and wide I am afraid. I really would recommend that the whole thread at the link be read... |
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
This is very disturbing, while some of these coins do look questionable most look to be legit. Had they made it to auction a lot of unsuspecting folks would have lost a great deal on money. I would be interested in knowing where these were being sold and how much research the auction house did to verify them prior to sale. Whoever found these to be fakes should get a big pat on the back.
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Valued Member
 United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Yes it is very disturbing. Although some effort was made to responsibly censor the thread, I think in a couple of places the identity of the auction house in question remains named. As was said by a number of people, though, the belief is that the situation is ripe for such an event to occur at almost any of the auction houses right now. Indeed that others...several mentioned German one's specifically...are guilty of so far escaping accountability for very dubious practises.
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Pillar of the Community
1121 Posts |
Quote:
We would like to inform you that ...... has withdrawn lots 100, 150, 156, How does it help us when the name of the Auction house is removed? Edited by Topcat7
11/12/2014 11:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1045 Posts |
I have followed that thread since it was started. It saddens me that unscrupulous people and/or entities are putting a stain on our dear hobby. I am blessed to be too poor to be a potential buyer in this market. I will stick with my LRBs
Edited by Biancasdad
11/13/2014 12:13 am
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Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts |
Can't really comment on the whole article (don't feel like registering atm).
But my own experience at auctions (respected houses) was that it really depended on the (quality of the) staff preparing the items for listing. Have seen quite a few items listed with poor/wrong attribution and also counterfeits/copies labeled as genuine. Rarely high end stuff though.
Makes one wonder how many (not very experienced) collectors have some spurious coins or wrongly attributed ones in their collection.
In a similar sentiment to 'Biancasdad' I stick mainly to the low/medium price range and for more expensive items I stick with dealers I know and trust.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1045 Posts |
Ultimately it comes down to money as it has for centuries.
These coins are commanding premium prices. There are buyers fees, sellers fees, consignment fees, etc etc. It is a simple concept, pay experts to verify the authenticity of your coins. Shave a few points off your bottom line to protect your reputation, your clients, and the hobby at large.
Sounds outrageous I know
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Pillar of the Community
1121 Posts |
Don't these auction houses have their own 'expert' on the payroll?
Every car workshop has a mechanic, every optical store has an Optometrist, every hospital has a Doctor.
After all, coins is what they do, and if you cannot trust what you buy from them, you stop buying. If you stop buying they go out of business.
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Valued Member
United States
356 Posts |
I believe the auction house was ArtsCoin Roma. That other forum is very scrupulous in protecting unscrupulous sellers. So no names are allowed to be mentioned. There is a whole list of rules over there, ask Joe. He will gladly enlighten you. Some of the apologists over there are mind numbing, but I salute the valiant few who tried to get it out there and get the house listed on the list. However, in order to do that they want it to be fraud, which means intent. Naturally that is a very high standard. If you accuse a house of selling fake coins, it is only libel or slander if it is proven untrue. As one of you pointed out, where is their "mechanic" to inspect the coins. If they have one he does a mediocre job. We pay a premium to insure accuracy and they should provide it. I can see a coin or two slipping by, indeed it happened at CNG last month. However batches of coins is pure fraud and since this is no criminal court with a beyond all reasonable doubt demand, we can condemn them, get their name out there and not do business with them. These fakes are getting incredibly accurate and I can understand how they slip through but I for one do not want to hear sob stories from businesses, because this is a business, complaining that resources or time frames do not allow it. We take a risk when we buy stuff from ebay, sometimes we get deals that are too good to be true. However these houses that make millions in certain cases should have a criteria for coins valued over a certain amount, say $500 or even $1000. Sure, I buy a $100 fake coin I will be mad, but dropping 5,000 or even 50,000, well heads would roll. No reason you cannot pay David Sear $40 to certify your 10,000 coin you cheap thugs. I for one plan on being very open and spreading the word about dealers of fake or tooled coins. Edited by caesar77
11/13/2014 02:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
1121 Posts |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
This raises so many issues. One is the complacency that us 'bottom feeders' have in being glad to not have such money to lose. Whilst that is true, when I lose a £100 it is definitely more than trivial to me and I suspect that some on FORVM have the wealth to feel similarly only about a £10 000 coin. I do not suppose there is a firewall between the top end of the market and my level. When corrupt practises take over, they permeate. Whilst some rich Mafia don may be running the show when it comes to the forgeries of £50 000 coins, there is always some bottom feeder crook, inspired by the rife corruption and having learnt some of their methods, to match my bottom feeder collecting. I bet trickle down corruption is more effective than trickle down Reaganomics ever was. The second thing that occurs to me is the 'reality gap'. By this I mean the false confidence that certain outlets attach to their business and the misplaced faith that some have in them. There is an honesty about the Wild West of ebay. But the mark up one has to pay in buying from auction houses, or say the FORVM coins shop, is huge...and I wonder how much of that is justifiable...how much of the security that the coins are authentic is genuine. These places are businesses and at a time when the whole field is being corrupted with dodgy money, I do wonder whether there is an incentive for these businesses to invest more in the propaganda of security than in providing actual security. Edited by Valecrucis
11/13/2014 06:35 am
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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,624 |
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Posted 11/12/2014 10:56 pm
