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Commems Collection Modern: 1975 Daniel Carr Bicentennial Fantasies

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CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
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commems's Avatar
United States
12252 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2016  12:31 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've noticed a few posts recently regarding Daniel Carr's "Fantasy-Date Over-Strike" pieces, so I thought I would join the party and post the only such pieces I have in my collection.

Aligned with my focus on US commemorative coinage, my examples are "1975" fantasy pieces with the designs of the US bicentennial coinage that carried the dual dates of "1776-1976." Each of the pieces was over struck on a corresponding specially prepared / reworked silver bicentennial coin that was minted in either 1975 or 1976 in San Francisco; Carr also over struck these pieces on CuNi clad coins of the same period.

I stumbled upon the "dollar" piece on ebay one night a few years ago and decided to purchase it. I then periodically visited Mr. Carr's "Moonlight Mint" web site to check if the other bicentennial coins were also to be over struck as 1975-dated fantasy pieces. Eventually they were, so I was able to purchase the "half dollar" and "quarter" directly from Mr. Carr as they were released.

The silver versions of these medals were available in "High Grade," "Bulk Handled" and "Circulated;" all issues sold out fairly quickly. I chose to go with the "High Grade" examples and then had them graded and encapsulated by ANACS using their special Daniel Carr / Moonlight Mint insert; each features an original Daniel Carr signature.

ANACS refers to each piece as a "token" on its insert, but I would argue that these pieces are medals as from the moment they were struck they never possessed any monetary value. To be a token, a piece has to have a value as a medium of exchange if even only in a limited region or for a limited timeframe. It's worth pointing out that the pieces use the "coin turn" orientation vs. "medal turn" in their striking just as with the original / real coins.

From the data posted on the Moonlight Mint web site, the production dates for these fantasy pieces are as follows:

Quarter: October & November 2013
Half Dollar: October 2013
Dollar: October 2011

The mintages for the silver pieces are as follows:

Quarter: 140 (two varieties, incuse "FG" [17] and raised "FG" [123])
Half Dollar: 106
Dollar: 123

Their original selling prices were:

Quarter: $65 (incuse "FG") / $75 (raised "FG")
Half Dollar: $70
Dollar: $85

As an aside, I think it's great that Mr. Carr provides the details regarding the production of his fantasy pieces - collectors like to know such information!

Mr. Carr has also created a fantasy-date piece for the Oregon Trail Memorial half dollar (it is dated 1927) but I have not yet pursued this piece on the secondary market - who knows what the future holds!

In my collection, I categorize these pieces as "interesting supplements." They will never be part of the core of my collection, but I appreciate them for their craftsmanship, aesthetics and inherent "What if?" quality (an element that always intrigues me).

Enjoy!


Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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2023 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2016  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are very cool. How did DC's signature get in the slabs? They're all different so they're probably not stamped, and since ANACS is the only grading service certifying these, I'm guessing they have some arrangement.
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moxking's Avatar
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17900 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2016  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, as always, for your interesting and factual presentation.

As far as a classification, I would deem them all to be Fantasies, as your header suggests.

In world coins there are books full of fantasies that are energetically sought, so I wouldn't consider that term derogatory.
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Cascade's Avatar
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7390 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2016  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice commems. You better go get that Oregon! You're the commem guy for cryin' out loud That one is on my list too along with the Hard Times Token "Panda"
Edited by Cascade
12/23/2016 10:34 am
CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
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commems's Avatar
United States
12252 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2016  10:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How did DC's signature get in the slabs? They're all different so they're probably not stamped, and since ANACS is the only grading service certifying these, I'm guessing they have some arrangement.

Yes, the Daniel Carr signatures are all "wet" originals vs. facsimile copies printed on the label.

Yes, Carr does have an arrangement with ANACS for the special labels. He also consults with ANACS regarding the authenticity of "Daniel Carr" pieces submitted to ANACS to prevent copies of his work from getting into ANACS holders.


Quote:
As far as a classification, I would deem them all to be Fantasies, as your header suggests.

In world coins there are books full of fantasies that are energetically sought, so I wouldn't consider that term derogatory.

Mr. Carr refers to these pieces as "Fantasy-Date Over-strikes" - the phrase I used in my title. I'm fine with that as an adjectival descriptor for the type of medal that they are - it fits nicely.

I don't consider the term "fantasy" derogatory but I do view it as an indication that the piece in question is not actually a coin as fantasy implies "not real."

Whatever they're called, those who collect them enjoy the pursuit and that's what collecting is all about!


Quote:
You better go get that Oregon! You're the commem guy for cryin' out loud.

Ah, nothing like a little peer pressure to get the collector juices flowing!



Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
Valued Member
United States
171 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2016  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dcarr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, I'm glad you like them. As a coin "geek" myself, I enjoy making such things.
As for the status as "tokens", that is debatable. The pieces were legal-tender coins prior to being over-struck, and the apparent face value was not changed. I do not claim any legal tender status for them, however. But I have a standing offer to give at least the original face value in trade for them. So, in that respect, they are a sort of "token". Of course, the current silver value in these pieces is higher than the apparent face value. Not all of the over-strikes were 40% silver, however. Some are on copper-nickel clad coins. Here is a fill listing of all my fantasy-date over-strikes:
http://www.moonlightmint.com/dc-coi...uck_list.htm
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jbuck's Avatar
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187582 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2016  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
commems, a wonderful post as always.


Quote:
ANACS refers to each piece as a "token" on its insert, but I would argue that these pieces are medals as from the moment they were struck they never possessed any monetary value. To be a token, a piece has to have a value as a medium of exchange if even only in a limited region or for a limited timeframe. It's worth pointing out that the pieces use the "coin turn" orientation vs. "medal turn" in their striking just as with the original / real coins.

Quote:
As for the status as "tokens", that is debatable. The pieces were legal-tender coins prior to being over-struck, and the apparent face value was not changed. I do not claim any legal tender status for them, however. But I have a standing offer to give at least the original face value in trade for them. So, in that respect, they are a sort of "token".
Good arguments for each term applying here.
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ExoGuy's Avatar
United States
4415 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2017  07:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:
ANACS refers to each piece as a "token" on its insert, but I would argue that these pieces are medals as from the moment they were struck they never possessed any monetary value. To be a token, a piece has to have a value as a medium of exchange if even only in a limited region or for a limited timeframe.


IMHO, the "token" description does apply to the Carr issues. A great many Civil War tokens lack a denomination, being coin substitutes that served to voice political sentiment. Then too, many Civil War tokens were struck over coins. Love tokens were typically made by planing the reverse side of coins, removing the denomination. Two-sided love tokens were coins yet still valued for their specie content and sentiment. Tokens were largely issued for commerce, but many served other purposes. In the case of the Carr pieces, they are fantasy tokens, I'd say, struck specifically for collectors.

Here's a Civil War token that reminds me most of the Carr issues. These were struck at the Great Central Fair in June of 1864 in Philadelphia. The Mint exhibit used dime planchets for silver tokens, these having reeded edges. Copper tokens of the same design were struck in much larger numbers ....


Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies

Commems-Collection-Modern:-1975-Daniel-Carr-Bicentennial-Fantasies
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