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 Replies: 36 / Views: 3,030 |
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
Hi all, How many of you collect cirulated coins and how many BU coins? Why?
I collect circ. coins because the likelyhood is they haven't been tampered with. Also I can attempt a complete set without spending a fortune. My opinion anyway. Excluding moderns.
How true is is that most of the unc coins especially Morgans have been dipped or otherwise cleaned? I see no sense in spending alot of money on a coin that is not original. Especially slabbed coins. I do collect slabbed Walkers though, hoping that the Walkers are modern enough not to have been cleaned.
Looking foward to your opinions,,,,, Tony
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Hi Tony
My collection is mostly Circs,,
Having said that upgrades are always on my mind, and I upgrade to BU as the opportunity presents itself within my budget.
I really cant answer with any authority about the Morgans, although I have heard and read the same info as you many times over.
Rick
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Pillar of the Community
United States
867 Posts |
My Morgans are mostly circulated- I don't know how many supposedly BU Morgans are actually cleaned or dipped but it sure seems like there are a lot of them out there. I have one or two BU coins, but they're from a trusted source, I don't know if I'd ever buy a BU sight unseen. The circulated ones fit into my budget better anyways.
Rachel [:p]
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Rest in Peace
United States
954 Posts |
I like the circulated coins as well. People have less of a chance of playing with the MS grading points. A nice circulated coin always pleases me.
catman
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Pillar of the Community
United States
980 Posts |
It depends on the series for me. Walkers definitely circulated, for the cost, and many of the uncirs are not original (many are of course too...). Frankies, a mix. One day I hope to upgarde completely to uncircs. Luckily, many of these haven't been dipped. I'm not a Morgan expert, and many have been dipped and/or cleaned, but many have not. The more I look at, the more confident I am of my ability to tell. Morgans are one of the few series where large numbers are available in uncirc grades with nice luster, and even blast white.
Classic commems are another series where many uncircs are avail (as a proportion of the available coins), and the majority of them have some toning if they have never been dipped. I'm going the very slow uncirc route there.
Don
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Valued Member
United States
421 Posts |
I collect both but I generally prefer circs. Some of it has to do with them actually being used for what they were intended for. Some of it has to do with the ability to handle and store them without the fear that a piece of lint will get on them and do irrepairable damage. Some of it has to do with price. Some of it has to do with the unique look of a nice circulated coin.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Tony, while I prefer Mint State in my Morgans, I have to settle for circulated coins in the keys and semi-keys of the series, e.g., 79CC, 93CC, 89CC. It is true that many, if not most of the keys have been cleaned at some point in their 125-year +/- existence, but the trick is to determine whether or not this has happened by careful examination and securing a return policy before purchase of raw coins. On raw circulated and mint state Morgans, it is problematic whether or not it has been cleaned; the less common the coin, the more likely it's been cleaned. If I purchase a Morgan slabbed by PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG, the probability is very high that the coin has not been cleaned unless so stated on the slab (ANACS). Any other TPG besides the above four that is slabbed is open to question whether it has been cleaned or not; unless I'm in a gambling mood and budget, I don't buy Morgans slabbed by the likes of SGS, ACG, NTC, NNC, CCGS, PGS, or any other of the wannabe and ripoff grading companies, all of which have been known to slab cleaned, dipped, or otherwise problem coins. The best means to assure oneself that a coin is original is to buy it already slabbed by one of the top four TPGs. |
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New Member
United States
27 Posts |
All uncirculated PCGS and NGC Morgans
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Valued Member
United States
72 Posts |
I prefer the AU coins over the MS ones. I think I can get a better looking coin for the money that way.
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New Member
United States
44 Posts |
I collect whatever is available - Uncs, circs, cleaned, holed, even some corroded. Even "problem" exonumia maintains a fairly high percentage of problem-free value. When most total pops are 20 or less, when one comes along that you want, you gotta grab it, as you may not ever see another up for sale.
"If I purchase a Morgan slabbed by PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG, the probability is very high that the coin has not been cleaned..."
That is a very common perception, but the tpgs themselves make no such claim. The websites of those tpgs discuss various types of cleaning, but typically only claim to "no-grade" the "harshly" or "improperly" cleaned coins. That would lead me to believe the other types of cleaning they discuss must be permissible for slabbing. PCGS and NGC have on occasion even slabbed coins that are harshly cleaned, even though they indicate they will not do so. I know of some high $$$ coins that the experts describe as "harshly cleaned" that reside in the top tier slabs.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
I prefer circulated. But sometimes that's not possible in the case of medals art bars or comemorative tokens. But for coins or tokens that were intended to circulate I prefer to have the ones that really did circulate and ideally in XF45. You really don't have to worry too much about rubs on an XF45.
It may have made sense 50 years ago to buy the highest grade coin you could afford. That was when a circulated coin sold for $1.00 and the highest grades were Unc or Proof and might sell for $2.00 or 2X the circulated price. Under those conditions the Unc coin was probably the better deal. That's no longer the case when an XF sells for $100 and a MS67 sells for $2,000.
They keep telling us that change is good. Okie-dookie then, I like change too. In fact I've change the way I view circulated coins and 11 Uncirculated grades. They can keep the MS67 and the slab it rode in on. Give me the circulated coin/token that the "market" has discounted down to peanuts because it's "ugly."
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I collect what catches my eye. The only series for which I'm insisting on MS condition is my Morgans, which are plenty common in most cases to acquire that way. The rarer issues will just have to wait, because I can't afford to pay $500 for a coin on Home Depot pay.
I'm delving into circulated Large Cents - in XF-AU thay're very attractive and quite affordable.
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
I collect BU in most of my moderns but must go with whatever is available for those classics, key dates and of course whatever falls into my coin budget at any given time. I have found it is best to buy a needed coin when it becomes available rather than pass due to grade as I may not see another for months or years. I can always upgrade if the opportunity presents itself. Take my 1884, 1885, 1886 and 1912S nickels for example. My dealer bought and held them for me, all at the same time, and even though they were not the grades I was seeking they are the only ones I have had the opportunity to see and hold in years and years so I bought them. In the years since I still have NOT seen the 84,85,or 86 for sale and the 12S which he has had are no better than the one I have. The set is complete and I have a great number of nice coins (high grade) in the bunch but still waiting for the opportunity for that upgrade on the keys. I am content with what I do and very happy with the hobby so it doesn't get any better than that!
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by cwtokenman
I collect whatever is available - Uncs, circs, cleaned, holed, even some corroded. Even "problem" exonumia maintains a fairly high percentage of problem-free value. When most total pops are 20 or less, when one comes along that you want, you gotta grab it, as you may not ever see another up for sale.
"If I purchase a Morgan slabbed by PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG, the probability is very high that the coin has not been cleaned..."
That is a very common perception, but the tpgs themselves make no such claim. The websites of those tpgs discuss various types of cleaning, but typically only claim to "no-grade" the "harshly" or "improperly" cleaned coins. That would lead me to believe the other types of cleaning they discuss must be permissible for slabbing. PCGS and NGC have on occasion even slabbed coins that are harshly cleaned, even though they indicate they will not do so. I know of some high $$$ coins that the experts describe as "harshly cleaned" that reside in the top tier slabs.
cwt, I'm not sure I agree, at least at the levels which initiated this discussion. While any cleaning of an ultra rare coin (say, 1933 St. Gaudens, 1913 Liberty nickel, any of the Draped Bust dollars) is likely to be ignored by the top TPGs (ANACS excepted), the more common MS and circulated coins which most of us are likely to encounter (Morgans in my instance and being used as prime examples in this thread) which have even a hint of cleaning back in the 1800s are gonna be bodybagged by PCGS in my observation and experience. Now, whether or not an 1895 Morgan which shows old cleaning would be bodybagged by PCGS would be a good question. I should also qualify these statements by saying that light cleaning many years ago on circulated coins might be very difficult to detect, even by PCGS's graders. Conversely, PCGS has bodybagged MS coins with provenances which demonstrate that the coins have NOT been cleaned, but have lost some of their luster over time. Again, if PCGS even suspects a Morgan of any grade has been cleaned, it will bodybag it although, as mentioned above, there are exceptions. Such borderline examples are subject to the human factor: catch the graders on a Monday or high smog day, and they're likely to label a coin as cleaned which otherwise on a good day they might let through. I have yet to see any "common" Morgan which has been harshly cleaned make it through the grading process. I also have yet to see any 1889-CC Morgan below the grade of MS-62 which might have been cleaned long ago make it through TPG grading (again, ANACS excepted). Then, there's the question of how many years a coin must wait after a very light cleaning before it can be graded. Has an MS-65 1879-CC Morgan which was buffed by someone's wet shirt sleeve in 1880 before being placed in someone's collection for the next 125 years aged or "naturalized" long enough so it can now be graded? Granted, PCGS states that it will not grade coins which have been cleaned, but there are always exceptions for the rarest coins, the provenance of any particular coin and its current owner, and the detectability of a light cleaning many years ago. But for most of us and most of the coins we collect, a cleaned coin of any degree is gonna be bodybagged by the top TPGs or, with ANACS, so indicated on its slab. Thus, for purposes of most collectors, a slabbed coin by the top TPGs remains a pretty good guarantee that the coin has not been cleaned. Fred |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Because I collect Bust halves, I like the lightly circulated examples better. Quite frankly, I like the way the coins wear. Don't get me wrong, BU Bust halves are pretty, but I think wear gives them more character.
On an interesting note, I have found that circulated Morgans are selling much better than BU Morgans these days. I think that the Morgan series simply has the BU market flooded and it's harder to find nice circulated examples of these coins. Morgans are another coin that, in my opinion, wear nicely.
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Valued Member
 United States
382 Posts |
Thanks all,
Yes I prefer circulated coins because holding coin from the early to mid 1800's I am holding history in my hands. A circ. coin in F has alot more character than all the shiny examples in the plastic. I am not against slabs altogether I am doing a Walker short set in MS 64 and buying them slabbed so I can be certain of the grade, (as far as that counts)
I visit Collectors Universe those guys with the slabbing, certification companies, resubmitting, I think they sound like they are just trading commodities. I'm sure they are collectors too, but it does nothing for me. At the shows it's the same thing slabbed Morgans, all the talk is sbout them (it's a 4 no it should be a 5 look at this 6, kills me.
All this and not to mention the cost of some of the slabbed early stuff, I know I can't afford them.
JMO Tony
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Replies: 36 / Views: 3,030 |
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Posted 11/26/2005 1:58 pm
