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 Replies: 34 / Views: 2,888 |
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Valued Member
 United States
110 Posts |
Ok. Here are some compressed pictures of the overall coins. Once again, there is an 80-O and 87 Morgan. All 4 files should be easily identified. Image:  80Oobvscan.jpg26.48 KB Image: 80Orevscan.jpg99.42 KB |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
There is a problem with the file you are attempting to upload.
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Filename scan87obv.jpg File names must use only valid characters
Extension .jpg Certain file extensions are not accepted
Size 104.2 KB File sizes must be reasonable
Getting this error when trying to upload the obv and rev scans of the 87. Can someone check this out?
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Is 100kb the maximum file size to upload here?
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
I thought it was 110...but you know what...it would probably help if I remembered to compress the pictures. (One day, I will use the 2% rule...geez!) Anyways, without further delay!!!!!! Image: scan87obv.jpg28.02 KB Image: scan87rev.jpg27.93 KB Hey Dave...it worked! (My brain that is...someone please, feel free to smack me!) You know what...I think that will be my new signature! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
Ok. I can see that happening. But that brings us back to the ultimate numismatic question that is on our mind (as well as every collector's mind when they look at a new coin), WHAT IS IT WORTH? These are obviously some beautiful coins with great details and luster. UNPROFESSIONALLY, since we are not graders of PCGS or NGC...or whomever your favorite grading company is out there...personally...I don't like any of them...too pricey and no uniformed method of PRECISE grading (hey, grading is like the law...it's however the judge interpretes it), I would have to say 63+ on the 80-O and 64+ on the 87. The previous scans do these coins no justice...so...someone help us out on this one, too, if you can accurately photograde!
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Becky, try as I may, I cannot make the obverse and reverse dies of my sample 1887P come together to create that clash. There is a small leaf in the vicinity which could create part of the clash, but it would require the dies to be offset on both x- and y-axis from each other, not to mention one would have to be rotated. Now, I'm no expert on clashes - is it possible for a clash to happen where one die shifts its' position before the clash? That's the only way this would work. And that would only explain, using the pics below, part of the clash. The first is an 1887P Morgan reverse superimposed on an obverse, with the dies correctly aligned. The second is the poster's coin. Note that both the placement and the rotation of the small leaf are wrong for the suggested clash. Help me out here - I can't make the connection.   |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
DAVE...YOU AMAZE ME EVERYTIME!!!!! You have a 10000% valid point! It WOULD take both of the dies to shift BOTH the x-axis and y-axis in order for Becky's theory to work! At first, using her diagrams, I could see where it was possible, eventhough I had doubts, that the berry leaves might create the clash. The placement of the images together do not make this possible though. Now, we have to take it back to square one as far as the odds of both dies shifting on the x- y- axis at TWO different mints, on the same denomination, within 7 years time, creating the effect almost the same. Is Susanlynn out there? Sweetie...I REALLY think we might need to make a confrence with Rob Joyce for this one. He IS the VAM-man if my memory serves me correctly. http://www.rjrc.com/There is no VAM listed on his page for this in EITHER year. (By the way, it's been about a year since he last updated the page...so maybe he's working on identifying something like this...but in the meantime....HEEELLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)  Please! |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
I have some exciting news from Rob Joyce. I emailed him regarding this matter. Please, read the following email: At 10:59 PM 1/7/2006, Kerri and Mike Austin wrote: Rob, Your assistance is VERY much needed in this subject. What we have are two Morgans. An 1887 and an 1880-O. Instead of going through the details, I will ask that you take a look at this thread. You are the only one that we can think of to turn to for this. Please, help! Is there a possibility that my wife has discovered a NEW VAM? Please, follow the link for all the details. Thanks for looking! https://goccf.com/t/3256 Respectfully, Mike He responded with the following email! Mike, The coins with the "spiked lips" are indeed die clashed coins. I can't tell from the photos if the 1880-O are clashes that carry premiums or not. Dr. Mark Kimpton just wrote a book on Morgan Clashes and he's the Guru here. I know he went to FUN and don't know when he's returning. I've CC'ed him on the note. Regards, Rob This means that, hopefully, we will have an expert's opinion on the matter. Dr. Kimpton, if you read this, please, feel free to jump in at anytime and voice your opinion! Seeing as though we are all students in the numismatic world, we all can learn from an expert's voice and knowledge. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
Wow, I love your enthusiasm  First thing to remember, all the dies were set by hand by people. There is no way to put them in there 100% perfect every time. That's why a friend of mine from the CU forums made this tool. It can be rotated accordingly, very cool stuff, huh  The two lines at the top are perfect alignment, then you can rotate either way to see where the clash lines up on the coin. As you can see, the leaves are right there on her mouth. Some coins are clashed so hard, you can see Liberty's whole profile on the reverse, including her eye.  There was is a new book that just came out for Super CD's. There might be something in there for the 2 coins you have, but it would have to be something like the examples I have shown you to be special. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
You need to look in different areas than the mouth, trust me on this, it is very common. Look under the eagles tail for a clashed E, look on her neck for a clashed I or N, or in the hair V for a ST. Look above In God We Trust for an M. If you have a hard enough clash, there will be reminants of the cotton bolls from her cap..  There are coins with 5 different clashes on them, all sorts of other wonderful things. Keep looking, you've only found the most obvious part of the clash so far. There are a lot more interesting things on her for you to discover. |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
WOW! I see what you mean. Do you have access to anymore of those clash charts? Or where can I find one? By the way, those display cases are beautiful! (Need some way to contact you so that we may discuss possibly purchasing one once we get situated in our home.) You see, my wife discovered these two Morgans, and up until last night, we have never seen ONE like it...even more boggling was when we have TWO!!!
I've seen die clashes before...but never on a Morgan and never this detailed. That should explain why I am so enthusiastic. I'm still not even sure who to believe! I mean, please, don't take offense to this by ANY means, but Becky is backed, so far as I can tell, by Rob. Dave, however, makes a good valid point that I can see to believe in a scientific manner. I want to keep this thread active so that we can get the High Guru Dr. Kimpton's advice on this subject. It would be a pleasure and an HONOR to have a true expert take a look and study our two coins.
I hope this does not offend anyone in any manner because that is not my intention! Everyone's input is valuable and priceless because this is a true learning experience. And since these are two of our most unique Morgans, they will remain with us. (So, if you know anyone looking to buy...the answer for these two is NO!) They make my wife happy and that makes me happy!
Anyone else have any ideas for me to research on here? Diagrams are always helpful in a situation like this because we do not know exactly what to look for. You can tell me all day long to look for a E or an arrowhead or whatever, but without KNOWING what I am looking for, I am as lost a new collector trying to find a '55 Double Die in MS65!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
My recommendation at this time is to buy the book. The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace dollars by Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis. This is what you need to get started, it's just a start, but it has detailed pictures and loads of history. On page 120 is a picture of the mouth of a Morgan dollar that is a clashed die, she is a twin to your coins. This book isn't just for Vammers, but for anyone who is interested in the Morgan or Peace series. It is full of wonderful information and pictures, you will love it. I see our newest member is Rob!! Welcome |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
WOW!!! HE IS HERE!!!! It is an HONOR to have such an EXPERT in the field to be part of this community!!!! Thanks, Rob!!!!
I have looked HIGH and low for the book in stores but with no luck. It looks like we are going to have to break down and pay a good chunk for it off the internet. Does anyone know where to find it at a possible discount price? Our funds are limited because we are still trying to recover from Hurricane Katrina.
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
ATTENTION ALL COIN LOVERS!!!!! We have the final say on this matter! With extremely gracious thanks going to Rob Joyce and Dr. Mark Kimpton, I can produce this email: Hi Mike and Rob, What you are seeing on the coins are evidence of clashing. What you need to look for are details of any clashed letter details. The clashing in front of Ms. Liberty's lips and in front of her neck can be seen in roughly 1 of every 50 Morgan dollars. Of those that are clashed only 1 in roughly 10-15 will have any clashed letter details. It is the letter details that create a seperate variety. Hope this helps. Mark With this, I have invited Dr. Kimpton to join us as well! Rob, if you read this, THANK YOU!!! You both have been a TERRIFIC help and we all hope that Dr. Kimpton and yourself enjoy yourselves! (Basically, as Southern boy, like myself, would say: "Take them shoes off and make y'erselves at home!") |
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Replies: 34 / Views: 2,888 |
First Page
80Oobvscan.jpg
80Orevscan.jpg
Posted 01/07/2006 4:59 pm
scan87obv.jpg
scan87rev.jpg
