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Series 2017 A - Anyone Have Any Info?

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Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2020  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't see what you're saying. If I'm looking at the BEP reports correctly, then I get:
Jan 2020
Feb 2020


In my post I said to look at the year 2019
Jan 2019
Feb 2019

I think they were having problems with the 2017 series, and they created the 2017A series with the changes.

It is similar to the problems BEP was having with 2009 series ($100 banknotes only). After they fixed the problem they came out with the 2009A series even though the signatures were not changed.
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BadDog's Avatar
United States
1374 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2020  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In my post I said to look at the year 2019

My mistake. I didn't catch that you were talking about series 2017 notes and not 2017A notes.
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redlock's Avatar
Germany
992 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  02:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I, too, don't understand what PacoMartin means.
He talks about January and February 2019. Okay.
If I read the BEP reports correctly the Washington facility produced in January 2019:
19,200,000 $20 2017G suffix B, bank letter B
32,000,000 $20 2017G suffix C, bank letter D
25,600,000 $20 2017G suffix B, bank letter E

$20 2017G suffix E were printed in Feb. 2019.
However, I can't find suffix D.
Edited by redlock
04/19/2020 02:33 am
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BadDog's Avatar
United States
1374 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  06:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I, too, don't understand what PacoMartin means.

My confusion arose from his talking about series 2017 notes in a series 2017A thread. I just didn't read his post closely enough.

Take a look at the http://www.uspapermoney.info page about series 2017 $20 FRNs here and you'll see what he's talking about. Either the BEP skipped some suffixes (less likely) or their records are incomplete (more likely, as skipped notes have been observed).
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SteveInTampa's Avatar
United States
4637 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd love to find a 2017A $20 Minneapolis replacement note (PI*), from the 320K run in January.
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redlock's Avatar
Germany
992 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  1:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@BadDog:

Thanks for the explanation and the specific link to uspapermoney.
Now, I understand what PacoMartin means.



Incidentally, should we be worried that the BEP's February 2020 data hasn't been updated to the web-site?
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  3:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What looks like production problems with paper currency is not mentioned as one of the reasons to switch to central bank digital currency (CBDC).

But consider that the BEP has produced 13 billion color $100 notes in ten years Feb 2010 to Jan 2020. Production problems means the notes were first issued to the public on October 8, 2013.

0,508,800,000 2017A since Aug 2019 (only six months)
4,044,800,000 2013 since Nov 2014
7,267,200,000 2009A since Nov 2011
1,440,000,000 2009 (large number of defective notes) since Feb 2010
13,260,800,000 banknotes or 20,720 skiffs

The $100 banknote is different than the lower denominations partly because of the number of anti-counterfeiting devices. But also most people don't sweat it if they have an old $20 banknote. Partly since most $100 banknotes circulate overseas people get much more frantic if they have an old series $100 banknote.

The BEP could minimize potential production problems by issuing a $200 banknote so they don't have to replace both denominations at once. It is possible that by the next series that the BEP will have to produce 20 billion $100 notes in a few years.

But the issuance of a CBDC is being considered by many countries as an alternative to commercial bank money. It would also make it possible for the government to issue stimulus money very quickly.


This article from Sep 2019 is fairly good in discussing the pros and cons of CBDC.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/w...s-2019-09-06
Edited by PacoMartin
04/19/2020 7:57 pm
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BadDog's Avatar
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1374 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Incidentally, should we be worried that the BEP's February 2020 data hasn't been updated to the web-site?

Probably not. The BEP has been inconsistent of late in the timely posting of the production run data (but they have been waaay better than recent postings from the US Mint ). Most likely it will eventually show up

Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2020  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The European Central Bank puts out circulation figures every month on about the same day. You can always see what they are doing. For instance, the €200 banknote was never very popular, and circulation in these notes was increased by less than 1 million notes per month. But since the ECB stopped issuing new €500 banknotes they have been pumping the €200 banknote into circulation like crazy to keep the cash supply up. In March 2020, they increased the number of €200 banknotes by 62 million in one month.

The BEP is very sporadic with the monthly production reports, and last year they were behind about 8 months. In 2010 they fell behind over 2 years. But it was not an accident IMHO. They didn't want people to realize how bad of a FUBAR the production of new color $100 banknotes was going.

The BEP advertises how cheap their production costs are. The $1 and $2 bills cost 4.9 cents per note to make, while $5 cost 10.9 cents, $10 cost 10.3 cents, both $20 and $50 bills cost 10.5 cents, and $100 bills cost 12.3 cents. Swiss banknotes cost many times that amount, but then almost all Swiss banknotes are in the $100, $200, and $1000 denomination so they better be error free and darn difficult to counterfeit.
Edited by PacoMartin
04/19/2020 8:59 pm
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redlock's Avatar
Germany
992 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  02:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Folks, I need to apologize, clarify resp.

I meant updates to uspapermoney.info, not the BEP (which has indeed been very inconsistent lately).
The guy who runs uspapermoney usually updates his site very shortly after the BEP publishes figures. Not so with the February update, which is available from the BEP.


The huge increase in the number of the new €200 banknotes in circulation in March 2020 was very surprising to me.
Edited by redlock
04/20/2020 02:25 am
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Production of the the new Europa series of €200 banknotes (,000)
283,800 produced in 2017
715,000 produced in 2018

was actually quite large relative to the number of the old series €200 in circulation. There was only 553,600 of old series €200 banknotes produced in 16 years. The table below shows circulation of €200 notes including both series.
Jan 31, 2017	233,396
Feb 28, 2017	234,508
Mar 31, 2017	235,554
Apr 30, 2017	236,848
May 31, 2017	237,999
Jun 30, 2017	239,240
Jul 31, 2017	240,337
Aug 31, 2017	240,248
Sep 30, 2017	242,041
Oct 31, 2017	243,461
Nov 30, 2017	243,760
Dec 31, 2017	246,699
Jan 31, 2018	245,996
Feb 28, 2018	246,291
Mar 31, 2018	247,254
Apr 30, 2018	248,080
May 31, 2018	248,553
Jun 30, 2018	250,096
Jul 31, 2018	251,196
Aug 31, 2018	251,500
Sep 30, 2018	251,451
Oct 31, 2018	252,558
Nov 30, 2018	253,636
Dec 31, 2018	255,697
Jan 31, 2019	256,340
Feb 28, 2019	258,675
Mar 31, 2019	262,250
Apr 30, 2019	269,440
May 31, 2019	284,310
Jun 30, 2019	298,545
Jul 31, 2019	316,733
Aug 31, 2019	331,064
Sep 30, 2019	347,802
Oct 31, 2019	366,068
Nov 30, 2019	389,329
Dec 31, 2019	412,701
Jan 31, 2020	431,936
Feb 29, 2020	449,263
Mar 31, 2020	511,849

Every central bank claims that they only meet demand when it comes to the circulation of banknotes, and they are not trying to meet policy decisions.

But that is difficult to always justify when you look at production. I think that the ECB was bowing to political pressure to massively reduce circulation of the €500 banknote by not including it in the new Europa series. But they produced nearly a billion Europa €200 banknotes, so that the value of the CIC for Euro Area would not diminish.

Cash is the lifeblood of the central bank. There is a lot of speculation that governments are all in favor of reducing cash, because of money laundering, tax avoidance, trafficking, flu vectors, robbery prevention and hoarding. I think just the opposite is true in reality.

With the exception of the Scandinavian countries, there is very little reduction in cash.
Edited by PacoMartin
04/25/2020 02:59 am
Pillar of the Community
redlock's Avatar
Germany
992 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  03:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The €200 banknotes from the production order of 284 Million for the German and Belgian National Central Banks in 2017 are first series only!
No second series banknotes with production codes associated with Belgian or German NCB have been found yet. And most likely won't until a new production order will be made. Probably in 2022 or 2023.

Consequently, the initial order for second series €200 banknotes is 715 Million which are produced by France (in Chamaliθres, production code ''U''), Italy and Austria.
Edited by redlock
04/25/2020 03:39 am
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
5 euro note entered circulation on 2 May 2013
10 euro note entered circulation on 23 September 2014
20 euro note entered circulation on 25 November 2015
50 euro note entered circulation on 4 April 2017
Quote:
The €200 banknotes from the production order of 284 Million for the German and Belgian National Central Banks in 2017 are first series only!
I see that you are correct as the full design of the Europa series 100 euro banknote and 200 euro banknote was not revealed until 17 September 2018.I am a little surprised that they would be producing so many first series €200 banknotes that late.
Production of €200 banknotes 
2021	0
2020	0
2019	0
2018	715 - 2nd series
2017	284 - 1st series (6th and largest order of €200 notes)
2016	0
2015	0
2014	47 - 1st series
2013	0
2012	50 - 1st series
2011	0
2010	100 - 1st series
2009	0
2008	0
2007	0
2006	0
2005	0
2004	0
2003	133 - 1st series
2002	0
init	224 - 1st series
Edited by PacoMartin
04/25/2020 09:57 am
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redlock's Avatar
Germany
992 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  1:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am a little surprised that they would be producing so many first series €200 banknotes that late.


I was also surprised when I learnt about it. However, there's a simple explanation for it (which I got from a collector buddy recently):
--It was announced in May 2016 that the €500 banknote would not be part of the Europe series. The ECB ordered more €200 notes as a precaution in case large amounts of cash would be needed.
--Having learnt from production mishaps in other countries (most notably the coloured $100 bills) the ECB wanted to have a reserve in case something went wrong with the production of the new €200 note.


Within 11 months, 35,7% of the initially produced €200 banknotes are now in circulation.

Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2020  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
--It was announced in May 2016 that the €500 banknote would not be part of the Europe series. The ECB ordered more €200 notes as a precaution in case large amounts of cash would be needed.
I understand the logic, but I am surprised they didn't wait for one year and produce more notes for the Europa Series.

It doesn't seem like circulation increased that rapidly that would justify producing 284 million extra series one €200 banknotes. The table below is circulation in thousands of notes.
Apr 30, 2016	209,990 - announced that the €500 banknote x'd from Europa series 
May 31, 2016	213,871
Jun 30, 2016	218,566
Jul 31, 2016	221,727
Aug 31, 2016	222,927
Sep 30, 2016	224,805
Oct 31, 2016	227,102
Nov 30, 2016	229,872
Dec 31, 2016	233,614
Jan 31, 2017	233,396
Feb 28, 2017	234,508
Mar 31, 2017	235,554
Apr 30, 2017	236,848
May 31, 2017	237,999
Jun 30, 2017	239,240
Jul 31, 2017	240,337
Aug 31, 2017	240,248
Sep 30, 2017	242,041
Oct 31, 2017	243,461
Nov 30, 2017	243,760
Dec 31, 2017	246,699
Jan 31, 2018	245,996
Feb 28, 2018	246,291
Mar 31, 2018	247,254
Apr 30, 2018	248,080
May 31, 2018	248,553
Jun 30, 2018	250,096
Jul 31, 2018	251,196
Aug 31, 2018	251,500
Sep 30, 2018	251,451 - design completed for Europa €200  
Edited by PacoMartin
04/25/2020 9:37 pm
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