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 Replies: 1,279 / Views: 79,876 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2703 Posts |
Beautiful coin. Do you know what the leaves are symbolic of?
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Valued Member
251 Posts |
Let's start with copper coins:) Golden Horde pul - temp. Muhammad UzBeg Khan, Khwarizm mint, 732AH (1332 if I'm not mistaken)   |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7977 Posts |
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Do you know what the leaves are symbolic of? No, and I don't even know what type of leaf it is. They are called "feuilles d'ache" by deWitte, but I'm not sure the translation of "ache" from French (maybe erafjel can come to the rescue again?  ). Whoever created the Numista listing translated this as celery leaves. To me, it looks like a maple (erable) or a plane tree (platane) leaf. My guess is that it is just a decorative element. John III used a border like this on the earlier gros au chatel (which we will see in a few days). The previous duke used a border with fleur-de-lis. Edited by tdziemia
01/12/2022 4:11 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Sweden
2124 Posts |
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They are called "feuilles d'ache" by deWitte ... Whoever created the Numista listing translated this as celery leaves. Well, can't say I knew anything about this, but questions like these intrigue me, and after a bit of googling on French sites I now know more. It is indeed celery leaves. And apparently ducal crowns - at least French ones, and probably also those from Brabant - had ornaments in the form of, or at least looking like, celery leaves. Why celery, is the question then? In ancient Greece winners of the Nemean athletic games were crowned with celery leaves, but I don't know if that has anything at all to do with ducal crowns some 1500 years later ... Whatever the reason, I agree with t360 - it is a beautiful coin. Edited by erafjel
01/12/2022 5:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5181 Posts |
Quote:They are called "feuilles d'ache" by deWitte, but I'm not sure the translation of "ache" from French (maybe erafjel can come to the rescue again? ). Whoever created the Numista listing translated this as celery leaves. To me, it looks like a maple (erable) or a plane tree (platane) leaf. Wiktionary agrees that "ache" is celery. I also thought it looks very much like a maple leaf (or a plane tree leaf, I guess, they're nearly identical). [EDIT: ninja-ed by @erafjel] Edited by january1may
01/12/2022 5:38 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
725 Posts |
Celery is a bit odd. Medieval kings found all sorts of bizarre symbols to put on their coins, like pomegranates, boar's heads and martlets. It still confuses me that leopards and lions were the same animal, except leopards walked and lions stood (not least because the 3 lions of England are actually leopards). Even the fleur de lys is a strange emblem to be quite so crazy about. Quote:
Golden Horde pul - temp. Muhammad UzBeg Khan My only Golden Horde coin for this decade is also Muhammad Öz Beg Khan. It's dated, but I can't quite see which of the two possible dates it is. Muhammad Öz Beg Khan Dang, AH734 or AH737 Saray al Jadida. Silver, 1.4g. Just Sultan Uzbek Khan, mint of Saray, 734 or 7. Creed. The names of the First Four Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali (Sagdeeva 203). |
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Valued Member
251 Posts |
@JohnConduitt, yes, when the date is close to the edge, it is often become to be off-flan. I have the same problem with my coins of this type:) You can see quite different handwritings on these coins 1.   2.   3.   4. But I have an imitation of this coin with visible date 737:   Edited by Grinya
01/13/2022 04:03 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7977 Posts |
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Medieval kings found all sorts of bizarre symbols to put on their coins Yes, just in the plant world (and not far from this coin), the Flanders double groot of Louis de Male alternates between a parsley leaf and a clover to punctuate one of the legends. Why those plants?  Thanks @erafjel. No matter how many times I tried to find a translation ache <-> celery, I could not find it. Of course maple trees are not common in the Low Countries, so I wasn;t surprised that what looked obvious to a North American was not correct! By the way, that coin was struck in large enough quantity that they are not terribly expensive (in case anyone would like to add a nice "classic" Brabant medieval to their collection  ) This 1/2 gros of the Duchy of Brabant with a very recognizable design dates to 1338. This was the year that Edward III of England came to the Low Countries to persuade the rulers there to join his cause against Philip VI. John III of Brabant grudgingly allied himself with Edward, as his duchy's fortunes (from the wool trade) were dependent on good relations between the two nations. Unlike other continental imitations of English coins of this era, this issue was something like an homage to this alliance (i.e., not meant to deceive). Witte 354.   Obv. Crowned bust of duke. MONETA BRVXELLENSIS Rev: Short cross, with group of three pellets in each corner. SIGNVM CRVCIS. BNDICTV SIT NOMEN DNI NRI Edited by tdziemia
01/13/2022 09:09 am
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Valued Member
251 Posts |
Here is my pul of the year 731 AH (1331) It is written that 16 puls is dang which allows to make assumptions of the values of silver coins in copper puls.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1186 Posts |
Some dateable ones. 1338 S-m Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;495,Unger 393j.  1338 B-V Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 495,Unger 393f,Pohl 52-8.  1338 A-A Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 495,Unger 393b,Pohl 52-7.  1338 mace-mace Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 495,Unger 393n.   1338 m-m Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 495,Unger 393i.   1330K Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 472,Unger 373.   |
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Valued Member
251 Posts |
My favorite Golden Horde pul - Saray al-Jadida mint, type 737AH   |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
725 Posts |
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My favorite Golden Horde pul - Saray al-Jadida mint, type 737AH Mine too of yours. I saw it on Numista the other day and was waiting for you to post it  |
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Moderator
 United States
34467 Posts |
Ooh yes @grinya, that is a really nice one!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7977 Posts |
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My favorite Golden Horde pul Nery nice imagery, and great condition for a copper coin! I think we already have a Golden Horde coin from 1337, but I will add this "gros au chatel branancon" of the Duchy of Brabant that can be dated to 1337. Rather than exactly copying the stylized castle on the gros tournois, Brabant came up with their own, more realistic castle design for their gros, first struck in 1282. I've wanted for some time to get an example of this type for my Duchy of Brabant theme, and this is the only example attributable to a single year. Another pickup from the December Elsen auction (as was my 1363 contribution), and still their photo. Witte 337.  Obv: Castle gate flanked by two towers (and more celery leaves around it ). MONETA ANDWP' Rev: Sort cross. (Int) IOh'BRABAN'DVX (Ext) BNDICTV SIT NOME DNI NDR DEI IHV XPI Edited by tdziemia
01/14/2022 11:32 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1186 Posts |
Some date range ones. 1339-42 Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 497,Unger 394a.  1336-37 Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 491,Unger 391,Pohl 48.  1339-42 Hungarian Denar under King Charles Robert;Huszar 497,Unger 394k,Pohl 54-11.  |
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Posted 01/12/2022 08:09 am
