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 Replies: 117 / Views: 11,769 |
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Valued Member
United States
357 Posts |
What a person pays for a coin has nothing to do with the fair market value. For me I have paid as much as 10X the krause value for a coin only because I can not find it. Just because there are a few people that is willing to pay many time the book value for a coin does not mean that the coin is worth that much money. It only means that there are fools like me with a few extra bucks to spend. But it does not mean its worth 10X the value or any other amount.
In the Krause book for a 1932 5 Zlotych it list the values as
Fine-$90.00
very fine-$175.00
Ex-fine-$350.00
And no prices for any grade above this.
To summarize what I am thinking, The coin being fake or real can not be put into any a problem free NGC or PCGS slab.
Since this is the case the coin has no real value that can be assigned to other then what someone may be willing to pay for this coin.
Now to the best of my Knowledge there are no coin books published that give coin values for such problem coins.
So if coin is damaged, fake or not the coin may very well be some what worthless in the eyes of many people since they can get a gradable EXfine in a NGC-PCGS slab for about $350.00
Edited by norseman012
02/20/2009 8:19 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
Must ... stay .... away .... ughhh
I can't help it.
From what I am reading, sounds by now that most everyone is pretty sure that the encapsulated sealed coin is a fake except NCS.
Back to the original question. What would you do in this situation?
What would I do? At first, I said I would have sent the coin to some other reputable grading service and get a second opinion. But I am starting to think that if another company received the coin encapsulated, they wouldn't break the coin loose and probably wouldn't authenticate it inside of a slab.
So if it is broken out by the owner and sent in and found to be a fake, well, then it is a fake.
Somebody bought a raw coin initially, and in good faith with whatever knowledge they had to believe it to be genuine.
This amount of the purchase is really not important because proof of that amount cannot be produced. So it is only worth the amount fair market it will bring for what it really is.
This is a hard pill to swallow, but if I were in this situation and I did not tamper with the holder, I have no other choice but to send it to the NCS people and either take a fair offer and whatever compensation they offer for making the mistake.
I can't wish for something else, I can't expect them to pay $9,000.00 for an altered coin they made a mistake authenticating.
Seems like they are willing to go above compensation of the true value to some degree.
I can't expect them to pay for what was initially my mistake.
I should not have bought the $9,000.00 coin in a bazaar, ( First Red Flag )
I should not expect somebody else to pay for that/my mistake.
I would take exceptionally good images of the holder edges and content, and send it back to NCS and take my lumps. I am responsible for buying a raw coin, for the amount I paid "Knowing that there is a lot of copies of these coins on the market".
This must be a really good copy, it even fooled NCS too but, that does not make it worth $9,000.00.
So right or wrong, that is my answer to .... What would you do in this situation?
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CCF Sponsor
 Canada
149 Posts |
onejinx they told me they would replace the coin. They said they can't find one tho, and it's because they are looking to spend way less then the coin is worth. I've seen what these coins go for on auctions, and my price is similar. I know the coin is worth that amount because I know what I paid for it, and I know what kind of offers I received for it before I found out it was fake.
PS. If anyone finds this coin for sale at a coin show let me know I will definitely pay 10x more then Krause lists them at. FOR AS MANY AS YOU CAN FIND!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
machaj, I don't think you are truly understanding what is going to happen. This is the easiest way to put it.....You will end up taking a loss on the coin!
NCS told you they would replace the coin, but they are only going to do that if they can find one at what they consider fair market value. So if NCS uses Krause as their basis for FMV and Krause lists it as $500. If NCS cannot find a coin for that price, they will offer you the same in the form of a check.
It sucks you have to go through this, but as others have said when spending that kind of money on raw coins you should definately know more about the series of coin.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1077 Posts |
I think you have to establish with NCS fair market value. You also have to establish grade with them. Since your coin has problems this is the first thing to do, and the most difficult. They must know (Just like the rest of us) that Krause doesn't have much of a clue when it comes to the value of world coins. I see no reason (for the sake of their reputation) why they wouldn't consider other documented proof of value, from ebay, Heritage etc if you can provide it, AND it matches the grade (Net Grade) of your coin. Brett, why would they go by Krause, are they associated with them in some way? ps we still don't know if this is even a fake. Do we? Edited by QuickSilver
02/21/2009 07:33 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
If NCS has no auction results to go by for this coin, they would have to use a known published price book/catalog.
Not sure if we will ever know if the coin is a fake or not unless it gets sent back in for review.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
The problem is Krause is NOT the FMV for this coin. The OP says that he does have auction records that establish this. I tried a little searching and I was not able to find records for the 32 but I did find records for the more common 1930 and much more common 1928. For the 1928 Krause says $125 in Unc, Bowers and Merena had one with estimate of $2,000 - $3,000. They had an XF 1930 that Krause says is $275 that sold for $950. Apparently Krause is way out in left field on this coin series (As they are on many truly scarce or rare coins.) Now the 1932 is the rarest coin in this series and will obviously go for even more. The question is how much more? What would really be useful here would be whatever the standard price guide they use in Poland says it is worth since they would be more likely to be accurate on their home coinage than Krause.
Machaj, what kind of records do you have for what these have sold for in the past and in what grades?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
Condor I agree Krause isn't FMV, but with no other source to go by, NCS will likely use it to determine FMV since they more than likely also couldn't find any auction results for the 1932.
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
You can't use a book to establish FMV. You have to go by recent sales of the particular coin. Where do I come up with my FMV: Polish auction site Allegro had a couple for sale over the last few years. All which ended around 30 000zl range. I know what offers I received for the coin when I was trying to sell it in early Dec. ebay ($9000) which was the highest offer from ebay, I did not accept it. Allegro had a few between 25 000zl-28 000zl Most important of all I know what I paid for the coin. Tomasz |
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
I will be going to a Polish coin show next week. I'm sure the coin is fake. I will check again with a few dealers at the show tho next week. What does Krause put the 1928 nike with no mint mark at? Look what it sold for http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.asp...9035&fs=trueThese are not good to compare but it gives you an idea. Edited by LondonCoin
02/21/2009 5:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1267 Posts |
I'd be willing to bet NGC/NCS has had some "Feet on the ground and Ears to the Phone" pertaining to this matter and the original sale. For some reason they feel they're in the position to question several questionable aspects of this drama. To be quite honest you probably won't get a dime unless you send the coin (with or without yourself ) to NGC/NCS HQs so they can examine the slab, etc...
Good Luck
Ben
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Interesting drama!
Although I haven't read every post in this thread, I have one "overview" question for the OP.
machaj: Do you feel NGC/NCS is liable for the full market value of this coin?
The reason I ask is because you bought this coin "raw" on your own accord. You sent the coin to NGC/NCS for authentication and it apparently "slipped" by them.
I don't know what their contract specifically states but I can imagine someone submitting known counterfeits of high value coins and waiting to "hit the jackpot" when an error is made.
I'm certain NGC/NCS is aware this could happen and must have an escape clause in their contract. Let's say you knowingly bought a counterfeit coin for $10 that, if authentic, is worth $10,000. You submit it to NGC and it comes back authentic. Ha! NGC owes me $10,000!
Just a thought that I'm certain the lawyers at NGC thought of long before this thread started.
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
I think NCS is 100% liable, because I sent the coin in while I still had contact with the person I bought it from.
A person in my shoes who would of known it was fake would probably sell the coin. I'm not going to do that because I feel it's wrong.
There guarantee does say they will pay FMV for the coin. They do want to pay me, but it's not even close to being FMV.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
Why won't you disclose what NCS thinks the FMV is?
Is it really that big of a secret.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1077 Posts |
Still waiting for a grade too. What do people here think the net grade should be, given the cleaning etc.
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Replies: 117 / Views: 11,769 |
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Posted 02/20/2009 10:07 pm
