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How Far Back Can We Go? Seventh Edition!

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jbuck's Avatar
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ttkoo's Avatar
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 Posted 10/03/2024  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
....bump?...oh yeah...sorry
A new acquisition which may need some explanation and possible discussion.
For 1356 CE / AH 757 I have this Delhi Sultanate billon tanka.
Type GG # D473
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughluq (1351 - 1388)
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!

The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I first saw this coin, I thought oh, it's a 777. But the attribution type (GG # D475) doesn't match, plus that's a sick looking 7 compared with the final 7. Then I thought oh it's a 727, but that is 24 years before Firuz's reign. Then I thought oh it's a 767, but again the type (GG #D474) is wrong, and there is no leg on the 6. Can't be a 747, again, before his reign.
It leaves a 757 which matches the GG type D473.
Some explanatory pics below.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 10/04/2024  08:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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A new acquisition which may need some explanation...
Outstanding!

Quote:
...and possible discussion.


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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 10/04/2024  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A new acquisition which may need some explanation and possible discussion.


Well above my pay grade, but I'm personally willing to take what you are saying as the authoritative source @ttk.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 10/04/2024  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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For me, getting approval from J1M is important.

Yes, I agree. JohnConduitt's view would also be a good guide, and bd251 is experienced with the three GG types of Firuz Shah tankas.

For me, it seems clear cut. There are four dates in his reign that end in a 7. I can rule out 767 because the obverse side is a GG type D474.
Likewise I can rule out 777 which has an obverse side of the GG type D475.
And the mystery digit surely isn't an 8, otherwise I should pack up my albums and take up macrame.

However the big caveat is my relative lack of experience in this field, multiplied by my eagerness to get things moving again. So yes, some wiser heads need to agree with my reasoning before we progess back further.
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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JohnConduitt's view would also be a good guide, and bd251 is experienced with the three GG types of Firuz Shah tankas.
This is true, they are a valued resource as well.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tried to look up this type on Zeno (and then elsewhere, since Zeno didn't have that much) and I'm even more confused now.

There's a bunch of "767" D243 coins out there - specifically, Zeno 202813 (attributed to 767, which comments confirm is indeed inconsistent with the G&G type - 760 proposed which I don't think looks likely), Zeno 279850 (very uncertainly attributed to 756, with comments uncertain on whether it's the right reading; I see 567, which makes no sense), and Katz 96 lot 1812 (attributed to 767, D243, and "N# 77730" [sic - Numista 77730 is D244 and was probably selected because of the date]).

Your coin does not fully match any of those, which have a much smaller final 7, and a properly shaped 6 (which your coin is inconsistent with - there's a gap below the "5" that rules out a normal 6). Unfortunately I can't find any definite 757 (or even any other 75x of this type) to compare with at all.
The few 7x5 examples of other types do confirm that the shape of the 5 is exactly consistent with reading this coin as 757, but I'm not sure if I can rule out 767, because I'm not sure what's going on with the three examples linked above.

Maybe we should ask @Kushanshah for their opinion...
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 Posted 10/04/2024  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
According to Goron and Goenka, coins bearing Firuz's name start in 759. They list the dates for D473 as 759-764. I think your coin is D473 with retrograde date 759.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I think your coin is D473 with retrograde date 759.
Bummer.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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According to Goron and Goenka, coins bearing Firuz's name start in 759. They list the dates for D473 as 759-764.
Yeah, I missed that part in Zeno's comments, but I see it there now. Complicated...

Given the three linked examples, I'm not sure if I agree with this interpretation, but if we're using G&G as an authority against 767, it's just as much an authority against 757. So I guess this coin cannot be definitively attributed to 757 after all.

Numista 48620 (the entry for D473) also says 759-764 and I'm not sure how I missed that either.


TL/DR: unfortunately likely not 757, and Delhi can't help with that date. It could be a long search.
(I checked MA Shops when I saw the bump, and they didn't have anything interesting, only the same expensive coins they had last time.)
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 Posted 10/04/2024  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh well, it was a brave effort though!

The hunt continues.
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 Posted 10/04/2024  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks @j1m and @bd251.
I think the latter's comment about it being retrograde 759 makes sense of this and the "756" on Zeno. I had also missed the GG reference to the starting date being 759H for Firuz coinage as I don't possess the GG catalogue.
The one small mercy from this is that I can stop trawling through the Firuz Shah catalogue of one particularly obnoxious Indian coin dealer, and concentrate my efforts elsewhere.
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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