Low Production ASE, Congressman Wants To Know Why

Yeah, we just got through the toilet paper shortage after all.

No, by chaos, I mean the likely destruction of the world economy when every investment firm in the world drops their entire portfolio into untaxable PMs...

You think that vacating or terminating cap gains tax on bullion and crypto would effect "financial accountability of the federal reserve"? You're 30 trillion dollars too late.

No, this movement is a philosophical attack on taxation and the Fed, and it's a pet project of a vocal minority. The vast majority of Americans have never heard of Mooney nor the cap gains tax, let alone the cap gains tax on bullion and crypto.

You want lower taxes and a weaker Federal government? Me, too.

But bullion and crypto are not special in any way. If you realize a gain, you get taxed. That's the unpleasant nature of taxes.

Temporary stores of value? I call horse hockey. PMs and crypto are not a hedge against inflation. That's a claim touted by a handful of anti-vax Youtubers. There's too much volatility in PMs to hedge against anything. No, the vast, vast majority of stackers are in it for a profit. Sure, they hate the Feds and the Fed, but if/when bullions doubles and triples a whole lot of happy stackers are gonna convert that bullion into bullets and burgers.

//end rant//

PS: here's a link to the text of the proposed Act without Mooney's diatribe against the IRS:

https://www.moneymetals.com/uploads...-of-2019.pdf

Another Topic Well Deserving of Time ... America is Taxed to Our Death....


We need to be heard, Loud and Clear, No Violence, We are Disgusted................... Why stand Here idle, while Our Breather n are Already in the Field.......................... JMO....... I believe it was just after the start of the 1900's that We were started on a Wasteful, Dishonest, Blind test run and Wa Laa, TAXES !!! Sad.

I do appreciate the thorough and feisty responses here! Some very well reasoned arguments against me. I'm up for a debate...

@livingwater -

Sure, we could treat PMs like Roth IRAs, but that's not in Mooney's proposed Act, is it? Instead, he wants a blanket carveout for all PMs, not even just US bullion coins. My point is that PMs are not special. They don't deserve a carveout any more than any other asset.

The positive correlation between Youtube stackers/boosters and the alt-right anti-vax crowd nears 1.0, meaning there is a LOT of overlap between the two ideologies, if not the actual channels. Clearly, I did not commission a study to support my aforesaid point, but I feel very comfortable with my assertion. I have no more regard for an average Youtuber than I do a Wikipedia page. I prefer peer-reviewed journals, but a quick Google search returns numerous accounts that challenge the validity of silver as a hedge against inflation. Here's one now:

https://money.usnews.com/investing/...st-in-silver

For every Youtube channel you cite, I can cite another source that impugns your position. Silver is not a hedge against inflation. I love silver, always have, but it should never be more than a small fraction of one's portfolio. That's not just my opinion, that's the opinion of many financial advisors.

You mention stackers in it "for the long haul" who intend to pass their PMs to their scion. If so, they need not worry about cap gains taxes. They might worry about inheritance taxes. And those "dealers, big banks, day traders that are in it for profit" should darn well pay caps tax. Or would you exempt them from cap gains taxes too?

You mention that Nebraska exempts PMs from sales tax. That's great. But why exempt just PMs? That's taxation for social engineering. It benefits a very particular fraction of the population. Instead, let's get rid of all sales tax. I'll vote for that any day.

Yes, Mooney's diatribe. His argument lacks reason, partiality, and subjectivity. You're right, politicking is often one-sided and ill-informed, but that does not justify his position. I'd rather read a well-informed statement of purpose supported by research. Till then, I have little interest Mooney's position. PS: I doubt anyone in this thread, least of all me, thinks the border is secure, but I get your point!

Lastly, I also enjoy a good burger and the Second Amendment! Let's get together for a cookout some day! I'll bring my grass-fed beef, not a big fan of venison though.

@Bret -

I was absolutely being dramatic. I very much enjoy hyperbole in the appropriate context. You may wish to re-read my original message (above), in which I formulated a reasoned response to Mooney's proposed Act. Later, I purposesfully exaggerated my argument in response to your comments, which, I felt, were also dramatic. Hyperbole emphasizes absurdity, though I do firmly believe, as I stated earlier, that Mooney's proposed Act would have unintended consequences.

Regarding the national debt, my point was - and is - that exempting PMs from cap gains taxes does not "effect 'financial accountability of the federal reserve'".

We should, as you said, absolutely do something "now that makes sense..." My point was - and is - that Mooney's proposed Act does not make sense. Tha'ts the problem! Not that we shouldn't change the tax laws, but that our new tax laws should make sense!

Yes, it's a long-standing movement, supported by the Boston Tea Party, and it precedes Mooney by some years. See the very similar proposed Act from R. Paul:

https://www.coinnews.net/coin-legis...009-hr-4248/

The article notes that the proposed Act had 0 co-sponsors, so that re-inforces the idea that this is a vocal minority. The public has had years to consider the proposals, but there is no widespread interest.

To continue, PMs are not, in or of themselves, currency. They are assets. We buy and hold them with every hope that they gain value. And we all hope that that value meets or exceeds the rate of inflation. Why should we not tax gains on them when the gains are realized?

You say that these objects do not "actively generate wealth." You are drawing an artificial distinction. Assets do not have to actively generate wealth to be taxed. With few exceptions (a primary home, for example), cap gains on assets are taxed regardless of how they are generated.

You argue that bullion and PMs in general are "temporary stores of value". Again, that's an artificial distinction that can be made of any taxable asset.

As for the free market - well it does not exist and never has. The free market is an ideal created over the last few centuries to describe a so-called perfect economy. We live in a highly-regulated and taxed society, and we tax assets accordingly.

(Crypto is not currency, but I won't even begin my rant against crypto [too far off-topic and Mods will object!)

Finally, like you, I am absolutely skeptical of the government, but I'll let my vax/anti-vax comments rest as they, too, drag this thread too far off-topic. Mea culpa! I do wonder why you seemingly assume I support Biden. That's a strong example of nonlinear logic, but I digress. Again, my apologies for mentioning vaccines in the first place.

jeffbuckes,

It's very simple. You stated PMs are not a hedge. This is false. The article you cited said PMs in certain periods of time are not a hedge. Historical charts prove beyond a doubt PMs have had gains above the inflation rate in certain single years and multiples of years. If you had said PMs often or sometimes are not a hedge, that would be correct. But you made an all encompassing statement that it does not happen. Therefore your statement is not true.

You questioned YouTube as being a source of information. YouTube channels have both good and bogus information. Some of the journals you read may have YouTube channels. It's not about the platform, it's about content. The American Medical Association, American Psychology Association, Wall Street Journal, National Science Foundation, NASA, American Numismatic Association, PCGS, NGC, etc. have YouTube channels.

Local, state, federal governments have laws/regulations that are in flux. They can be added to, amended, repealed. If a city council decides to tax Wheaties but not any other cereal, that is the law until it's changed, fair or not fair. Many groups and projects lobby to get special tax breaks or subsidies. That's how our governments function, or dysfunction. If those who collect PMs could get their local, state, federal government to exempt PMs from sales tax or capital gains, I for one would be glad and I think other CCF members would be glad too.

I'm done.

Back to the topic, I hope the Treasury Secretary and Mint Director respond to Mooney's letter. Many collectors would like to know why ASE production levels are so low this year.

I prefer to be part of something greater than something weaker.