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Winesteven's Avatar
United States
697 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  12:40 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Winesteven to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Note to moderator - I listed this in the U.S. Modern category because in my true example, it happened with a Lincoln Cent. In reality, I believe this would be more beneficial to readers of the U.S. Classic Coin forum, since most modern coins are ineligible for CAC stickering, whereas almost all U.S. Classic coins are. Please move it if you agree.

Here's a crazy but true story that happened to me about two weeks ago.

I noticed in my CACG and MyCollect Registry Lincoln Wheat DATE set that my 1950-S Lincoln, graded MS67RD by PCGS with a CAC sticker, did not show as having that sticker. I then went to the CAC "Coin Look-Up" tool, and lo and behold, that cert showed as not CAC!

I emailed CAC to let them know that I bought that 1950-S Lincoln MS67RD PCGS w/CAC two years ago from Heritage, and I included a photo of the Heritage info, showing the coin and their description that it was indeed CAC stickered. CAC asked me to send them the coin. I then got a call from JA, as he now had that coin in hand, and he indicated that sticker had clearly been reapplied, from a different coin! He and I separately then contacted Mark Feld of Heritage, and CAC has now returned the coin to Heritage. I let Mark know exactly which lot in which auction I bought the coin.

Naturally, Heritage is refunding my money. Both JA and I suggested Heritage contact the consignor. It's possible the consignor bought the coin with the tampered sticker already there. Naturally, no one will admit to having done this. I would think that Heritage will take a look at other coins consigned by this person to see if this was a one time thing or if there was another similar incident.

I dropped the bad coin from all of my Registries. I searched GC, Collectorscorner.com, and ebay for a 1950-S Lincoln MS67RD PCGS w/CAC (that's the most common mint mark for that year - the "cheapest"), and I found only one, but it was really nice. It was on ebay, and I bought it after a brief negotiation with the seller. I then added it to all of my Registries.

So, while all collectors, including me, should know to check both the PCGS and CAC look up tools, many of us don't take the time, especially when the coin is being sold by a reputable auction house or dealer. But now I know to always check, to avoid these problems.

I don't believe Heritage is at fault, as my impression is none of the auction houses takes the time to look up every coin on the TPG website and the CAC Look-Up tool for confirmation of the status.

Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!

My collecting "Pride & Joy" is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/ty...edset/213996
Edited by Winesteven
04/23/2024 2:44 pm
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting story, thanks!
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187556 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh my!

I have made use of look-up tools when buying graded coins. That is solid advice.
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Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
6451 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Errr. I know we don't like to finger point at any auction houses. However, if they are listing a slabbed coin, I think it's the bare minimum of due diligence to type in the cert number. If the slab has a CAC or other 3rd party verification, that needs to be checked, too. Otherwise, since the auction house relies completely on the graded slab, how do you know they aren't enabling the selling of fake slabs? There is no reason to expect that every bidder will doubt and therefore research every slabbed coin offered by reputable auctioneers. Their in-house pro should do the diligence once so that everyone can bid with confidence.
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nickelsearcher's Avatar
United States
15386 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a powerful story Steve, thanks for sharing the lesson.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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Dearborn's Avatar
United States
94666 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great story, thanks. I would have thought that the CAC sticker would have some sort of tamper resistance security with it. Like what some stores to with the price tag (it is cut in small pieces on a roll and when applied to a merch, will not come off in one piece..
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My reaction exactly.
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Freespeech57's Avatar
United States
615 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Freespeech57 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for sharing, a great reminder for us all.
I do believe that Heritage, Great Collections, etc. should verify slabbed coins and CAC stickers.
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Errers and Varietys's Avatar
United States
73595 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2024  11:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting story.
Errers and Varietys.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187556 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2024  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would have thought that the CAC sticker would have some sort of tamper resistance security with it. Like what some stores to with the price tag (it is cut in small pieces on a roll and when applied to a merch, will not come off in one piece..
Agreed. It should be like the warranty seals we used when I did stereo repair back in the day. When you pulled it off, a cutout of the label stayed behind to say VOID.
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2024  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manosgerms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If Heritage cannot verify all the details of a coin they really should be selling the coin "as is". They do that sometimes but usually for coins that are not graded by TPGs. I think this should apply to everything including CAC stickers.
Incidentally, could the CAC people work out which coin their sticker was from? Do they have some sort of number allocation? I have never actually bought a coin with a CAC sticker as my main interest is in non US coins so apologies if this is something everyone already knows.
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Winesteven's Avatar
United States
697 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2024  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Winesteven to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The stickers are not numbered, so there's no way for anyone to know which coin, or whose coin, it was taken from.

I was just reminded today that many years ago, the first "generation" of CAC stickers were a lot easier to remove than the stickers created a few years later. Those initial stickers would still show some damage (apparently like the one on my coin with the tampered sticker). But the ones placed in use after that apparently are MUCH more difficult to remove, and will clearly show significant damage!

Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!

My collecting "Pride & Joy" is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/ty...edset/213996
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hfjacinto's Avatar
United States
7273 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2024  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Steven

Could the sticker be counterfeit? You believe it came from another coin but wouldn't it be easier to make a few fake stickers and put them on a coin?
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Winesteven's Avatar
United States
697 Posts
 Posted 04/24/2024  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Winesteven to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Once JA had the coin in hand, he immediately recognized it was a legitimate sticker that had been removed from another coin. As noted in my comment just above your reply, this must have been one of their "older" stickers.

That's not to say there can't be counterfeits. I've heard they are pretty difficult to produce in high quality. But China can do almost anything. Regardless, that's the lesson I'm sharing - check the certs of any CAC stickered holders with their "Coin Look-Up" tool.

Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!

My collecting "Pride & Joy" is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/ty...edset/213996
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19930 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2024  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As the saying goes, always "trust but verify"!
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hokiefan_82's Avatar
United States
3634 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2024  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the heads-up, Steve. While I always verify the cert # on any holdered coin I purchase, I don't always verify a CAC sticker. I'll definitely make sure I do it every time from now on.

I guess with the premium a CAC sticker can sometimes bring, it shouldn't surprise me some unscrupulous folks are doing something like this...
Member of SPMC, FCCB, ANA and ANS.
My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/
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