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Truly Airtight Holders? One Would Expect In The Year Of 2024 That PCGS & NGC Holders Are Airtight!

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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  3:02 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Are there any truly airtight coin holders? If, yes...which is the most economical?

Why is it that in the year of 2024 PCGS and NGC charge an arm and a leg and their holders are STILL NOT airtight? Is it because everybody is used to it and never demanded it? It cannot be that much more expensive on a large scale to come up with (or redesign the existing holders) to be truly airtight!

What about vacuum-sealing the PCGS/NGC holders using Mylar at home with a $20 machine?
Edited by NJcoppers
05/18/2024 3:11 pm
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
what makes you think that they are not?
At the very least I thought PCGS was. Theirs don't just clamshell together like NGC but one half recesses in the other half and then are 'sealed' somehow
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS says on their webs site that sonically sealed but not airtight: https://www.pcgs.com/faq#:~:text=It...0air%20tight.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You would be wrong. It is far, far harder to make something gas-tight than you might believe.

In fact, PCGS offered a water-tight holder a few years back and silently dropped it due to apparently low demand.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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NJcoppers's Avatar
United States
184 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2024  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would an airtight holder guarantee that the coin will not oxidize/corrode (if it does not have any corrosion on it when holdering)?

What about airtight sealing as in a food vacuum sealer?
Edited by NJcoppers
05/18/2024 6:15 pm
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BStrauss3's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The food sealers are really only so-so. They remove air around the food, but over time some migrates back in. Leave it too long in the freezer and you still get frost.

To truly remove oxidation, the holder would need to be gas-tight and the work would need to be done in a sealed environment with Nitrogen or Argon or something expensive like that. You would need special training to work in what is a dangerous environment.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The very term "Airtight" is obviously just a silly advertising slogan for two pieces that simply snug together without a seal. Surely no one would take this literally.
Edited by Coinfrog
05/18/2024 9:21 pm
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 05/18/2024  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Coinfrog. Thus my question: are there are any truly airtight coin holders?
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BStrauss3's Avatar
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 Posted 05/19/2024  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beyond the gaps at seals, no plastic prevents gas from seeping through.

There is a surprising amount of research because of the use of plastic packaging for food. Making things worse is that the plastic needs to be clear to use in a slab.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...13549390202S
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...l1_318010903
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...ygen-barrier

-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2024  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You would be wrong. It is far, far harder to make something gas-tight than you might believe.

Quote:
Beyond the gaps at seals, no plastic prevents gas from seeping through.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16805 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2024  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the real world, things can be "air resistant", but not "airtight". "Airtight" requires zero introduction of oxygen, and on this planet, "zero oxygen" in a confined space is really, really hard to do unless there's something in that confined space that's actively consuming the oxygen. That's the principle behind Intercept Shield products, but even these have a limited lifespan, as the supply of sacrificial metal runs out, but the Earth's supply of oxygen never runs out. As collectors of bright shiny metallic objects, oxygen is our enemy (which is kind of ironic, given how much we personally need the stuff to continue existing), but from a big picture perspective, the struggle is futile. If you declare war on oxygen, oxygen will win in the end, guaranteed.

Let's consider the hypothetical "perfectly airtight coin container": embed the coin in molten acrylic. You know those paperweights that were fashionable back in the 1960s and 70s, where coins were suspended in plastic? Those coins are all still perfectly preserved 50+ years later, so that seems like a pretty good way of assuring permanent air-tightness. That same acrylic is what they make slabs out of.

However, acrylic - or polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA), to give it its proper name - is not completely airtight either. It's oxygen permeability is really really low - but not zero. Oxygen does move through acrylic, but very slowly. Give those paperweights a few more centuries, and those coins will start to oxidize. Slabs are much thinner than those paperweights, and the heat-sealed joint between the slab half-shells is even thinner still. Oxygen will find a way through, and oxygen will win.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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NJcoppers's Avatar
United States
184 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2024  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for the inputs, for the links, and for your time explaining the more scientific reasons behind the difficulty of the task to preserve coins from oxidization. You were very convincing. And I believe it's easier to understand now why (what seemed to me like a "low-hanging fruit" first) there are no truly airtight coin holders on the market today.

So the next best thing (until there is an economical solution) is to keep the coins in a controlled environment....i.e. the selection of holder materials and ambient temperature/humidity.
Edited by NJcoppers
05/21/2024 7:41 pm
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16805 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2024  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes. "Air resistant" might not seem as good as "airtight", but if "airtight" is essentially impossible, then the next-best thing is to reduce air flow as much as possible. That means air-resistant containers, that means silica gel and sacrificial copper placed in the storage box (because oxygen isn't the only enemy, you want to restrict atmospheric moisture and sulfur, too), and it means sealing the storage box up as best as practical. Because the slow seepage of oxygen into an environment is still better than the free and unfettered flow of air you'd get from an unsealed container.

On the subject of air-tightness, and specifically looking at in-the-slab coin doctoring, we see that the laws of physics make it impossible for a slab to be doctor-proof.

Gas permeability of a slab depends on several factors. There's the thickness of the plastic, for starters, and which plastic you're using (PMMA has low permeability, while polystyrene, for example, has such high permeability it might as well not be there). But temperature and pressure also play a part. They can make a slab nice and tight enough so that it ought to last 50 years before oxygen gets in, but a coin doctor can simply ramp up the temperature and pressure, and cause fifty years worth of gas to pump into the slab within weeks or days.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2024  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
keep the coins in a controlled environment.... ambient temperature/humidity.
This is very important. Humidity should be low and temperature stable.
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