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 Replies: 11 / Views: 1,514 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
I have been fascinated by the 1859 over-dated Wide 9 over 8 cents for a long time. They originated from fifteen different 1858 reverse dies that had the final 8 re-punched with a 9. Along with the 1858 and 1891 SDLL cents, they are a key coin in the Victorian cent set that people traditionally collect and are conditionally rare in very high grade. I recently set out to compare the few examples known in MS-65. I thought some others might be interested in the results. I will spread this out into several posts to make it easier to follow. The major TPG census reports list eight examples in MS-65 (and none above that): PCGS - No examples in MS-65 Red. Three examples in MS-65 RB. One example in MS-65 Brown ICCS - Two examples in MS-65, both designated Red (from 2013 census) NGC - Two examples in MS-65 RB. No examples in MS-65 Red or MS-65 Brown PCGS has graded one example in MS-64 Red, now in the Willamette Collection. It may be comparable to those in MS-65, but no photo was found, so I did not include it below. Patience please while I construct the other posts. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Looking forward to images!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1370 Posts |
First, the PCGS Red-Brown examples, of which I found three in MS-65. #1 - PCGS MS-65 RB - Cert #4715709 Pedigree: Mason/Canadiana/Uncommon Cents Known Public Auctions /Auctioneer/Sale Price Oct 26, 2002, Lot 502 /Michael Walsh/$ 3,080 CAD Jan 4, 2009, Lot 20322/Heritage/$ 4,600 USD Notes: Turner Dies OI1/RD4. Graded between 1995 and 1998. This could be the PCGS example offered on a 2004 TCNC (C&P) fixed price list for $6,399 CAD. I own this coin and my unretouched images of it in good light are below:   For comparison, here are the 2009 Heritage images of the same coin.   #2 - PCGS MS-65 RB - Cert #4622897 Pedigree: Norweb/Blay/Unknown Known Public Sales: Nov 15, 1996, Lot 4/Bowers and Morena/$ 1,210 USD Feb 8, 2023, Lot 1300586/Great Collections/$20,813 USD Notes: Turner Dies OC5/RD6. Graded between 1995 and 1998. This could be the PCGS example offered on a 2004 TCNC (C&P) fixed price list for $6,399 CAD. Photos from Great Collections   #3 - PCGS MS-65 RB - Cert #40246181; NGC MS-65 RB - Cert #3596606-007 Pedigree: Lantern Collection Known Public Sales: Jan 9, 2015, Lot 338/Stacks Bowers/$ 1,880 USD Notes: Turner Dies OI1/RD2. A heck of a buy in an NGC holder in 2015, as it later cross-graded at PCGS. Photos from Stacks Bowers   http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
09/06/2024 08:25 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
Now the PCGS Brown examples, of which I found two: #4 - PCGS MS-65 Brown - Cert #21948078 Pedigree: Unknown Known Public Sales: Oct 28, 2005, Lot 3024/Charles Moore/Unknown Feb 23, 2007, Lot 2775/Charles Moore/Unknown Jul 14, 2007, Lot 1255/TCNC/$ 3,150 CAD Oct 26, 2007, 2019/Charles Moore/Unknown Jun 27, 2008, Lot 2015/Charles Moore/Unknown Mar 8, 2008, Lot 410/Lower Canada Auctions/$ 3,250 CAD Feb 20, 2009, Lot 2639/Charles Moore/Did Not Sell Jun 26, 2009, Lot 1311/TCNC/Unknown Oct 16, 2009, Lot 2026/Charles Moore/Unknown Jan 3, 2010, Lot 20542/Heritage/$ 2,530 USD Notes: Turner Dies OG3/RD6. Graded circa 2002 to 2007. All the sales except the last were likely to the auction book and not to a buyer. Photos from Heritage Auctions   #5 - PCGS MS-65 Brown - Cert #21948078 Pedigree: Unknown Known Public Sales: Jun 26, 2009, Lot 1311/TCNC/Did Not Sell Notes: Turner Dies OH1/RD4. This coin no longer appears in the PCGS census. Either the auction listing contained an erroneous grade, or the PCGS removed the coin. Photos from TCNC  http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
09/05/2024 6:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
Now, the NGC coins: One of the two NGC examples in MS-65 RB now resides in a PCGS holder as coin number 3 above. NGC has graded one other example as MS-65 RB, but its whereabouts are unknown and no photo was found. It possibly could be Coin #5 above, or not. Now, the ICCS coins: #6 - ICCS MS-65 Red - Cert # Unknown Pedigree: Unknown Known Public Sales: Jul 19, 2008, Lot 1163/TCNC/$17,500 CAD Feb 20, 2009, Lot 2638/Charles Moore/Did Not Sell Jun 26, 2009, Lot 1312/TCNC/Did Not Sell May 15, 2010, Lot 637/TCNC/$15,930 CAD Jul 6, 2010, Lot 696/TCNC/Did Not Sell Oct 22, 2010, Lot 1743/TCNC/$11,500 CAD Feb 22, 2013, Lot 2009/Charles Moore/$ 9,250 CAD Oct 24, 2015, Lot 470/TCNC/Did Not Sell Notes: Turner Dies OB11/RD9. All of these sales were likely to the auction book and not to a buyer. One of the two coins in the 2013 ICCS Census. Photos from TCNC  #7 - ICCS MS-65 Red - Cert # Unknown Pedigree: Unknown Known Public Sales: Feb 25, 2011, Lot 2021/Charles Moore/$12,000 CAD Jul 16, 2011, Lot 1975/TCNC/Did Not Sell Feb 17, 2012, Lot 672/TCNC/Did Not Sell Apr 28, 2012, Lot 215/TCNC/Did Not Sell Jun 22, 2012, Lot 2033/Charles Moore/$ 9,250 CAD Jul 20, 2012, Lot 808/TCNC/Did Not Sell Sep 22, 2012, Lot 174/TCNC/$ 8,909 CAD Oct 26, 2012, Lot 623/TCNC/Did Not Sell Notes: Turner Dies OB11/RD9. All the sales before Sep 22, 2012 were likely to the auction book and not to a buyer. One of the two coins in the 2013 ICCS Census. Photos from TCNC  #8 - ICCS MS-65 Red - Cert # Unknown Pedigree: Victoria North Collection/Unknown Known Public Sales: Feb 12, 2015, Lot 1333/Charles Moore Legacy/Did Not Sell (start was $7,000 CAD) Notes: This coin was probably graded after 2013 ICCS census was published. Photos from Charles Moore  http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
09/06/2024 08:06 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
A few final thoughts: All these are terrific coins and marvels of preservation. TPG census numbers often cannot be accepted at face value. Coins are moved around and the censuses not updated. There are probably nine current examples out there in MS-65 (PCGS 5, NGC 1, ICCS 3), the eight shown above and the missing NGC example. The census numbers list eight (PCGS 4, NGC 2, ICCS 2). In my opinion the grading standards changed over time, both for PCGS and ICCS. Coins #1 and #2 are the best PCGS-graded coins and Coin #8 is the best ICCS-graded coin. It would be difficult to tell from photos which of those three is the best one. The eye appeal of these coins varied widely. Not surprisingly, the coins with lower eye appeal and less red luster seemed like tougher sells at auction, despite the MS-65 grades. All nine of these MS-65 coins seem to have found long-term homes. Except for the Norweb-Blay coin (#2), sold after Stewart's death, none has been at auction since 2015. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
09/05/2024 6:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5629 Posts |
It's always great to see your coins, Rob. You keep us 59'ers always with a set of sunglasses handy. Your body of work on Vickies is second to none, with award upon award upon award.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9415 Posts |
Some great coins there very good info and pics, thanks
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Moderator
 United States
193182 Posts |
Fascinating topic and great examples!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts |
Very beautiful coins!
Thanks for sharing all of that great information.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1629 Posts |
Very cool; thanks for sharing.
What is 'Uncommon Cents'?
I think there are 4 MS-66 1859's in the 2016 ICCS population report, but I don't have it in front of me as I'm working out of town.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1370 Posts |
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award, 2025 Guy Potter Literary Award, 2022 Paul Fiocca Award, & 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
09/07/2024 01:35 am
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Replies: 11 / Views: 1,514 |
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Posted 09/05/2024 5:58 pm
