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 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,428 |
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
New to hobby and had a quick question on coin grading companies. What are the top three companies ? Is there any one better then the other ? The reason I am asking is that I have no grading skills. I will be buying most if not all my coins on line and feel safer with what I am getting if they are graded. So I am looking for three companies I can have faith in when buying graded coins.
Thanks Tom
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Hi Tom
The Top three are PCGS,NGC,Anacs,, these are not in order, Opinions vary on which would be 1 or 2 or 3 .
I believe I read that your interest is leaning toward the Franklins,, My opinion for which would be best for this series would probly be Anacs,, I believe them to be a little more accurate on this series ,,or so Ive heard !! But like I said opinions will vary.
My opinion should also be taken as information heard , read and submitted by others,, I collect Raw unslabbed coins !!
I have one Anacs slabbed coin in my collection and that was a gift from a very good friend on the forum !!
Rick
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
The three top tier grading companies are ANACS, NGC, and PCGS. All of these companies have had various points where they were stricter or more lax on their grading, yet these three are the most consistent. I have found ANACS to be the most consistent of the three. Recently, PCGS and ANACS have become more strict on their grades. I believe this was due to an outcry from the numismatic community that higher value coins were receiving higher grades than they would have had if they had been common dates/mints. ICG is also a company to consider when purchasing. They have had a reputation for overgrading modern coins, but I understand that they have corrected this problem and recent submissions are much more accurately graded. From what I have seen, since you are mainly interested in Franklin half dollars, NGC may be your best bet for accurate grades. They note the Full Bell Line designation and overall I've been pleased with their grades in this series as they have seemed to be very consistent. Hope this helps you out.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I have to agree with the three companies mentioned above and would also agree that NGC would be a good one for you since you have decided on the Franklin half dollars. I have bought coins graded from all 3 companies and have been very pleased with my purchases, I usually get the ANACS coins crossed to either PCGS or NGC (this is no way means they are inferior)just for the reason that I compete in NGC's registry program and thats the only 2 companies they allow to be entered, I have heard ANACS will be starting a Registry soon and will allow all three companies that was mentioned and when that happens I will not have to go this extra step. I beleive that if you stick with the companies mentioned you will be pleased, I put a couple companies to stay away from in the welcome section before I saw this post of yours. Edited by Bryan1315
04/09/2006 11:43 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
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New Member
 United States
14 Posts |
Thank you for the information all it has been very helpfull.
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
My opinion is that all grading services' slabbed coins are acceptable because the brand of holder doesn't change the value of the coin. If you are buying online you should make sure the seller has great feedback. Only buy coins that have high-resolution, enlargeable photos so you can see all the flaws. These hi-res photos are often better than seeing the coin in your hand due to the magnification, but most online sellers don't include hi-res photos. Occasionally you will encounter a doctored photo, but usually the seller just won't include a useful photo if the coin has flaws.
Most of the people on this forum are biased towards ANACS it seems to me. I don't know why yet. Maybe it is a consensus based on years of experimentation. Maybe some of the forumers are affiliated with ANACS in some way.
You should always be careful when asking dealers which coins you should buy. They will refer you to the ones they make the most money on. Several of the members of this forum are dealers.
The PNG survey mentioned by Morgan Fred is completely biased in favor of the grading services that sponsor the PNG. They also only asked the opinion of dealers, so it is not surprising they recommended the most expensive grading services for whose coins they can charge exorbitant prices and rake in the profits. Is it a fair survey if they only asked the people they already knew were biased in their favor? Not in my opinion. They actually said PCGS and NGC had the best prices even though they are by far the most expensive!
Fred - I understand your point that it is the only study that has been done so it is therefore the only one you can link to and I agree. But I think it's flaws should be pointed out each time it is referenced.
Since I am not a dealer I would rather know what experienced investors think. An investor is different than a collector by the way. Investors look at things rationally and don't fall for the marketing tactics of the dealers and grading services.
If you buy NGC and PCGS coins you will be paying a much higher price than you would for other brands. You cannot compare one service's grade with another service's grade. Each of them have their own unique standards and methods. As a result each service's coins will yield a different price on the open market even if the grade is the same. NGC and PCGS are more consistent than most others, but they are still quite inconsistent in my opinion. I have had great luck (skill?) buying the off-brand coins and cracking them out of the holders. If you learn the skill of grading (so you can examine the coin before you buy it) you will be successful. If you just buy the coin because of what the holder says then you will be buying the rejected coins of people that know how to grade. This is especially true if you buy from a dealer because he/she would know enough to send the coin in for regrading if he thought it was PQ. That is why you will never rarely get a true PQ coin from a coin shop.
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New Member
United States
8 Posts |
Ancient, I've been kind of drifting back into the hobby so therefore I read a lot. What you just said is very true and to the point. One thing I've noticed is reguardless of the TPG service, the coin inside will be priced useing the PCGS price guide. ...Tony... |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Ancient, you are entirely correct, but one of the purposes of this forum is to educate new or inexperienced collectors. It would be very lengthy to make all the qualifications necessary to make generalizations completely accurate. The original purpose of grading and encapsulating coins was to be able to provide potential buyers with some sort of guarantee that the coins they wish to buy are as represented, sight unseen. This notion has long since been abused by such one-person grading "companies" as ACG, SGS, NNC, NTC, CCGS, and a couple dozen more who consistently over-grade coins, some by as much as 11 points or will slab problem (cleaned or damaged) coins and misrepresent them as something they are not. Further, most images of slabbed coins are not good enough to make a full appraisal of any particular coin, especially on a venue like ebay. Worse, virtually all of these slabs from non-tiered grading companies are sold by sellers (many of whom are dealers) who have either been suckered themselves and are just trying to get rid of the slabs or are (to put it mildly) borderline unethical and are targeting the uneducated. The lack of knowledge of many buyers keeps these last-rate grading companies in business. Thus, even though we constantly state, "Buy the coin, not the slab.", far, far too many people depend upon the slab to make their purchase decisions. Far, far too many coins in non-tiered slabs are problem coins and aren't worth anything but melt although the slab might state "MS-65" accompanied by a description which states "Trends $1200". I'll freely admit that when I've got the bucks to gamble, I'll buy a slabbed coin which I know to be grossly over-graded by a non-reputable company in the hopes that it will grade out to something near what I had guessed it might actually be based on a half-way decent image, as you stated, but I certainly would not even think of buying such a coin based on what the slab states nor if the seller has no return policy. I'm also experienced and knowledgeable enough in my particular specialty (Morgans) to know the difference between a "good" and "bad" coin, but it's taken me decades to build this experience and knowledge. New buyers don't know much about slabbing, so we try to steer them away from anything but the top-tiered grading services. Therefore, I would be very careful about stating without major qualifications that "all grading services' slabbed coins are acceptable because the brand of holder doesn't change the value of the coin"; there is no practical means for determining the value of a coin from an image inside a slab if the picture and description or label are vague and/or misleading, as you stated, but unknowledgeable buyers don't understand this and are easily misled by the fly-by-night grading companies. This is why we recommend purchases to new collectors of only the three top-tiered grading services (PCGS, NGC, and ANACS; when they have gained enough experience to be able to judge for themselves, then they can move onto riskier companies. While I wouldn't say "most" people on this forum prefer ANACS, many do for several reasons. The greatest reason is that James Taylor, new President of ANACS honored us with his presence on this forum for several hours answering dozens (hundreds?) of questions in January. I do not see David Hall doing the same. The second reason is economics: ANACS doesn't require we spend $$$ to join a club or society in order to submit coins for grading; ANACS submission prices are also a little gentler than PCGS and NGC. There's no doubt PCGS slabs command greater premiums than NGC followed by ANACS. The main reason is hype; PCGS has a deeply ingrained reputation for the best value although it may not be deserved. I recently had a falling out with PCGS over two Morgans and am in the process of switching to ANACS. I quite agree with your comments about the PNG-ICTA survey. It would be nice to have a comparable survey of us average collectors. Ancient, you are obviously an experienced and knowledgeable collector yourself. Please continue to share with us your expertise whether we agree or disagree with your information or any particular posting. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by BigMo
Ancient, I've been kind of drifting back into the hobby so therefore
I read a lot.
What you just said is very true and to the point.
One thing I've noticed is reguardless of the TPG service, the coin
inside will be priced useing the PCGS price guide.
...Tony...
This is sooo untrue, you can look at ebay and see that most of the knowledgable people will not even bid on SGS coins. It is the people that have little knowledge about coins that bid on these items and YES the people that put the price as what the coin is worth are going by the price guide on PCGS and if that coin inside that holder was actually a MS-66 then yes it would be worth it, but what we are saying is that MS-66 coin in that holder is probably an AU coin or could possible even be cleaned or have a ding in the rim that would stop it from being graded bu PCGS or NGC, ANACS will slab problem coins unlike the other two companies but they state on the holder what is wrong with the coin (cleaned,nicked rim, etc.) but if you are buying any of these SGS or any of the other fly by night slabs then test our theory out and send it to ANACS (which set the standards of how to grade coins) for the 10.00 grading fee and see what that MS-66 coin comes back as, I bet you will be very disapointed |
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New Member
United States
8 Posts |
Bryan: So far PCGS and NGC are the only two TPG coins I've purchased that are in slabs. That is because of reading folks like Ancient. I'm on disability and I've got to make every penny count. Event though ANACS is concidered the #3 TPG,their MS69 XXXX is going to cost me just as much as a PCGS MS69 XXXX. There are four coin shops in my little city and if you want it,it's going to cost the same as a PCGS. I don't see anyone giving a discount because it's in a #3 ranked slab. Reading the forums on the net,it seems none of them know what they're doing or they're running some kind of scam just to get your money. I can't be the only new or come back collecter that has this impression. ....Tony.... |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by BigMo
Bryan:
So far PCGS and NGC are the only two TPG coins I've purchased that are
in slabs. That is because of reading folks like Ancient.
I'm on disability and I've got to make every penny count. Event though
ANACS is concidered the #3 TPG,their MS69 XXXX is going to cost me just
as much as a PCGS MS69 XXXX. There are four coin shops in my little city
and if you want it,it's going to cost the same as a PCGS.
I don't see anyone giving a discount because it's in a #3 ranked slab.
Reading the forums on the net,it seems none of them know what they're
doing or they're running some kind of scam just to get your money.
I can't be the only new or come back collecter that has this impression.
....Tony....
Tony, welcome to the forum! We often have lively discussions like this, but we all stay friends and friendly. Sounds to me you've already learned quite a bit about the worth of coins slabbed by the top-tiered grading services. And you hit the nail on the head with your observation that they are For-Profit companies out for a buck. However, they do provide a service by guaranteeing that a coin slabbed by their companies is somewhere within the ballpark in grade and authenticity, something that is not provided by any of the other grading companies (ICG may be excepted), and that a buyer may have some confidence that they are buying, sight unseen a coin which is not intentionally misrepresented. The PCGS Price Guide is far too often misused and abused. A seller will state a grade for a raw coin or take a slabbed coin from a non-rated grading company and state its value based on the PCGS Price Guide, knowing full well that the raw coin or last-tiered slab isn't anywhere near that grade and value. For that matter, except for very high grades (say MS-66 and up) or for very rare coins, the PCGS Price Guide prices most coins over, and often way over their actual market value (what persons are actually willing to pay for a coin). I also use printed price guides (Coin Values, Coin Prices magazines) and various online sites, especially http://www.coinvalues.us/ and, for high grade/value coins, Heritage and ebay past auctions for general pricing guidelines. Fred |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1262 Posts |
Welcome to the forum BigMo.
Hope you enjoy yourself
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Valued Member
United States
187 Posts |
In the market place, PCGS pulls the top prices for the same grade coin. I went on ICG's homepage the other night and they have made some nice improvements. Losing James Taylor to ANACS did set them back some. But, they picked up Cammie who is a superb grader.
If you want nothing more than to protect your coin with the benefit of what cosmetic appeal is afforded to slabs, then you can't beat SEGS. SEGS has the best slab of any grading service hands down.
If you are going to submit to ANACS, I'd suggest you wait until they have worked out the bugs from their move from Ohio to Texas.
Jerry
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by ancientmoderngold
My opinion is that all grading services' slabbed coins are acceptable because the brand of holder doesn't change the value of the coin. If you are buying online you should make sure the seller has great feedback. Only buy coins that have high-resolution, enlargeable photos so you can see all the flaws. These hi-res photos are often better than seeing the coin in your hand due to the magnification, but most online sellers don't include hi-res photos. Occasionally you will encounter a doctored photo, but usually the seller just won't include a useful photo if the coin has flaws.
Most of the people on this forum are biased towards ANACS it seems to me. I don't know why yet. Maybe it is a consensus based on years of experimentation. Maybe some of the forumers are affiliated with ANACS in some way.
You should always be careful when asking dealers which coins you should buy. They will refer you to the ones they make the most money on. Several of the members of this forum are dealers.
The PNG survey mentioned by Morgan Fred is completely biased in favor of the grading services that sponsor the PNG. They also only asked the opinion of dealers, so it is not surprising they recommended the most expensive grading services for whose coins they can charge exorbitant prices and rake in the profits. Is it a fair survey if they only asked the people they already knew were biased in their favor? Not in my opinion. They actually said PCGS and NGC had the best prices even though they are by far the most expensive!
Fred - I understand your point that it is the only study that has been done so it is therefore the only one you can link to and I agree. But I think it's flaws should be pointed out each time it is referenced.
Since I am not a dealer I would rather know what experienced investors think. An investor is different than a collector by the way. Investors look at things rationally and don't fall for the marketing tactics of the dealers and grading services.
If you buy NGC and PCGS coins you will be paying a much higher price than you would for other brands. You cannot compare one service's grade with another service's grade. Each of them have their own unique standards and methods. As a result each service's coins will yield a different price on the open market even if the grade is the same. NGC and PCGS are more consistent than most others, but they are still quite inconsistent in my opinion. I have had great luck (skill?) buying the off-brand coins and cracking them out of the holders. If you learn the skill of grading (so you can examine the coin before you buy it) you will be successful. If you just buy the coin because of what the holder says then you will be buying the rejected coins of people that know how to grade. This is especially true if you buy from a dealer because he/she would know enough to send the coin in for regrading if he thought it was PQ. That is why you will never rarely get a true PQ coin from a coin shop.
Hi Ancient Since I was the only poster to recommend Anacs !!! I thought I would post back to this thread with a bit of News !!! I dont use any of the TPG's as I stated very clearly in my initial post !! But If I were to send coins in and since as the consensus has already made clear (Anacs sells for the same as PCGS) then I would use Anacs based upon this sole point!!! Every coin sent to Anacs comes back in a slab labeled, even if its a problem coin !! So you see I have not spent one dollar with any TPG !! and I wont pay a premium above the true grade of a coin in a slab just because its in a slab, just to bust it out and put it in my collection !! But when a man wants value for his buck !!! a coin coming back in a body bag is not the answer !! Rick Edited by Metalman
04/11/2006 02:00 am
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
I only submit coins to PCGS. IF I had to sell or liquidate my collection, I know...all things being equal...that I will realize higher prices for PCGS graded coins over NGC over ANACS over ICG. The market has spoken. Don't beleive me? Look up realized prices for PCGS graded coins versus the others (NGC, ANACS) for the "same" coin in the "same" grade. Heritage is a good start to back my statement: http://coins.heritageauctions.comAll you NGC supporters out there, cry all you want, but I am NOT about to fight against what the market is dictating. How about this as an example?...a modern coin graded by NGC as PR70UCAM will sell for a 1/3 of what a PCGS PR70DCAM will go for. Why? NGC hands out almost 10, 12, 15 times more 70 grades (per total submissions for a given coin) than PCGS. You don't think the market has noticed that fact!?! Excuse me...the market HAS!! The same holds true for MS67 grades. If you look at Lincolns, NGC MS67 coins sell for substantially less then a PCGS MS67 Lincoln (as an another example). How about a MS65 Morgan graded by both PCGS and NGC? The same story. So if I submit, I want the service that is the most respected and realizes the highest prices. If I buy, I am equal opportunity all the way (especially if I can see and hold the coin). If I can "steal" a coin that was slabbed in a lower tiered grading service (like PCI or SEGS), I may break it out and send it off to PCGS. Even if it comes back a couple of points lower, I bid and take that into consideration when I buy from a lower tiered service. Even after submission costs and all, when I sold PCGS graded coins...I covered my costs and REALIZED more dollars than if I didn't!! SEARCH REALIZED AUCTION PRICES from ebay, Teletrade or Heritage. You'll see! I am not about to fight against market forces...otherwise it is like carrying a battle flag during the civil war...very honorable, but they usually got shot first!
Edited by zakgold
04/11/2006 06:30 am
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Replies: 22 / Views: 3,428 |
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Posted 04/09/2006 09:48 am
