What Is The Definition Of A Canadian Variety - Error Coin

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 2,317
hhbkiddo Pillar of the Community Canada 1248 Posts	Posted 09/01/2009 2:46 pm What is the Definition of a Canadian Variety or Error coin? Everyone knows that there are many varieties and error coins in the Canadian coinage. However, there seem to be a lot more Varieties in the coins, 1920 and older. Some are extremely valuable, some are not. Some are recognized and others are not. Some Varieties are explained "away" as so called "die problems". Perhaps they are... or they are something else? And, these "Die problems" can be of many types and shapes.Why are some of them more expensive than others, IF they are only DIE PROBLEMS? NOW, are they really only die problems, or something else, like perhaps completely NEW and slightly different dies? The following logical questions need to be asked to understand the "variety-error business" and iit's very obvious financial impact 1 When does a coin become a recognized variety or error coin 2 Who decides that it is a variety or error? 3 Who sets pricing for these? 4 Why are some more pricy than others? 5 Why are some recognized and others are not, despite clearly being different? Example: see pictures of the 1907 10 cent (look carefully as there are differences) I challenge all of you to find at least 3 differences. and..... I was told it is just a worn out die......beats me... and now.... what is the definition of a worn out die? These are all interesting questions.looking for straight forward answers. Report this Post to the Staff

Bill in Burl Valued Member 197 Posts	Posted 09/02/2009 7:09 pm First, you need to get both coins into the same magnification ... they are not the same. A worn die will appear to make all lettering and digits a little broader/thicker, but from your pics, you really can't tell. You will also loose a little definiton/clarity unless it (the die)has been tweeked at the mint in certain areas. To me a "variety" is the same as what Hans Zoell put forth in the 60's ... it is a coin that has been struck with a die that was "as the mintmaster OK'd" and made with correctly operating machinery, so recuts, re-engravings, etc are varieties as are die modifications. It also includes repunches, or hubs that have been recut to make new working dies. I would also include most doubling, whether from repunching or Machine Doubling, almost across the board. Mules fit in as well, but cracks, breaks, strike-throughs, Cuds, and the like are errors, as most certainly any planchet differences. My opinion only but it works for me. Report this Post to the Staff
hhbkiddo Pillar of the Community Canada 1248 Posts	Posted 09/02/2009 10:59 pm Quote: A worn die will appear to make all lettering and digits a little broader/thicker, ok, I agree... BUT then the measurement from one end to the other also has to increase...in the same ratio... right? the 1907.... How do you explain the 0 in 10 and 1907 ? there are many other years with fat and narrow numbers..... thes 10s are not a worn die IMO. If they were, all dimensions would have to be equal...... way toooooo many questions.... Report this Post to the Staff
mkb Valued Member United States 324 Posts	Posted 09/08/2009 02:29 am 1 When does a coin become a recognized variety or error coin - That depends on what you mean as recognized - there may be several definitions as to what is considered recognized. Some folks almost never recognize any variety and others recognize just about anything. But, to me, a good rule of thumb is when collectors trade it, or if a coin has the same or similar characteristics of coins that are already traded by collectors, then it is a "recognized variety". Consider the double struck 1969 1c recently posted. To my knowledge, this coin hasn't traded yet (or at least not in a meaningful way). But the double struck 1967 50c and $1 coins have. So, because this 1969 1c coin has the same characteristic as actively traded coins of another year and denomination, I would consider it as "recognized" - and possibly even more rare than the 1967 pieces... 2 Who decides that it is a variety or error? - collectors usually decide this but dealers may also... 3 Who sets pricing for these? - collectors and dealers usually set the price either by bidding on it or by placing an arbitrary price on it based on precedent. Note that even well established coins trade at prices all over the map... 4 Why are some more pricy than others? - good question? Likely few collectors have any idea how rare some pieces are. This is why I dislike mintage figures for coins minted befor 1937. 5 Why are some recognized and others are not, despite clearly being different? - lack of information/images to the market place. This is changing though with the advent of the internet. Report this Post to the Staff
papeldog Pillar of the Community Canada 1923 Posts	Posted 09/08/2009 1:24 pm Some very good questions. I think a coin is just another coin until we the collectors bring it out into the open like on these coin forum web pages and tell others why we think it is a special piece, is it an error coin, variety or just an odd piece. As MKB mentioned in his post the Internet is changing things it's a window to the world and the more picture's posted and information gathered on what one thinks is a special piece the quicker it would be labeled to a category. Like MKB mentioned about my Double Struck 1969 1 cent coin I posted picture's of on another topic I have seen a few around but not many most people don't recognize it to be much, not like the 1967 coins. The 1967 50 cent and $1.00 were in the news at all the coin shows they got a lot more publicity than the 1969 I only saw the 69's at the odd coin show I never ever saw them in the news. I purchased both my 1969 Double Struk and the 1969 Flip Strike from a dealer going out of business in the 90's. Variety and error collecting is gaining popularity in the Coin World more and more all the time with more voice on these discussion site's and help from the Internet by posting picture's of the coin and information about them to show others. Pricing seems to be a very touchy topic but usually the fewer there are the more they would be worth like the Olympic free style skiing mule there seems to be lots around but the 1999 $2.00 mule few around I think pricing will work itself out from ebay, actions, dealers and how hard they are to acquire. The more we talk about specific coins and post picture's the more knowledgeable we the collectors will be about that coin? Keep the discussions up. Report this Post to the Staff
mkb Valued Member United States 324 Posts	Posted 09/08/2009 2:32 pm "the fewer there are the more they would be worth" Unfortunately, rarity often works against a coin developing good valuations in the market. The vast majority of collectors base what they are willing to pay for an item on its trading history. And if there is only 1 coin, and it trades every 10 to 20 years, then there is little history to base a trade on. This is where precedent can help out. Report this Post to the Staff
livingdinasaur Pillar of the Community United States 1571 Posts	Posted 09/08/2009 2:38 pm Later...I don't know the "how, or why, but I now see both coins in relief! Befor, the left one was incuse! so much for vision. Or should I call it an "illusiion"? My first observation is that the "coin" on the left is not a coin. It is incuse, while the coin on the right is relief. it appears to have been pressed into softer metal, which would all w a "clash-like impression to be made, except the two would be reversed. (This case indicartes a two-step procedure, which would change the "working hub" into a master hub, which would be in relief, as opposed to being incuse for the final striking of the coin, in relief, or in cuse. Depends of the design), as appears in the two shown. Second, the fonts are not the same, The 0 in 10 is not the same on both images. My vision does not allow much more scrutiny, than that I noted. What is the third difference? In answer to what is an error, as opposed to a variety? The error is transferred from the working DIE, to EVERY coin struck by this die. The variety, is something that changes form A single coin, to the next coin, or coins. It is NOT a constant, as is the ERROR. Crudely expressed, but essenctially correct. Not being up to date on most world coins, the two shown could both be coins, normally used. I do believe the coin on the right was made with worn dies, as indicated by some extra lines next to some of the letters, or devices. That does not mak it an error, nor a variety. The making if the hubs is where the error is introduced, usually. The variety, will be caused by the presses, during the minting process, mmaking varietied. 2. who decides? that is a matter of when, not who. errors are produced by the working hub, if an arror is present in the HUB. tjhe vatiety is determined by 'chance, depending on the stat of the equipment during the minting peocess. 3. who set s pricing? Thre first one sold, or bought is decided by the buyel, and seller. All other prices are just "adjustments of that figure. 4. why some are more 'pricy" than others? many reasons, such as Mintage "supply and demand", need for commerce, among others. 5. why are some recognized by others, despire clearly being different? Look at it thios way: You are NOT a coin collector. Some one shows you a coin with both a HUB doubling, and a Mechanical Doubling. would you know the difference? Dick Edited by livingdinasaur 09/08/2009 4:59 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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