Early Date Facing Eagle 8 Reales Of Mexico

swamperbob:

I have encountered three different ray counts for the 1825 Do's. I have seen or own 29, 28 and 32 ray count Cap die examples. There also appear to be three different (legitimate) Eagle die variations. (1) Periods both between and after REPUBLICA.MEXICANA. (CA.NA.) (2) A period between but not after REPUBLICA.MEXICANA (CA.NA) (3) No periods between or after REPUBLICA MEXICANA) (CA NA)

I have purposely listed the above types in what I believe to have been their basic emission sequence.

The 'Hookneck' Durango's of 1824 all have (CA.NA.) Eagle dies. Therefore, logic would follow, as Dunigan/Parker suggests, this was likely the first type struck in 1825. I can only confirm two examples of (CA.NA.) Eagle dies. One is the first Eagle plate in Dunigan/Parker. The other is in Ponterio Auction #143-1298. The Ponterio example is definitely paired with a 29 ray Cap die. The Dunigan/Parker Cap die plate coin also has 29 rays. I can't verify that this 29 ray Cap die was paired with the (CA.NA) plate coin pictured next to it, but the toning on both is remarkably similar. I can verify that it is not paired with the middle (CA.NA) plate because I now own that coin. Both of these examples are of the same die types, but all are different dies. Time and searching by die variety collectors will determine if all 29 ray Cap dies were paired with only (CA.NA.) Eagle dies?

The majority of 1825 Cap dies that I have seen have had 28 rays. I have encountered five different 28 ray Cap dies. Four of the five were paired with (CA.NA) Eagle dies and one with a (CA NA) Eagle die. It appears that the 28 ray and (CA.NA) die types came next in emission. I do not know of any 1826's with (CA.NA) Eagle dies, but there are (CA NA) examples. Additionally, I do not know of any 28 ray Cap dies in 1826 either. Therefore, logically the 28 ray Cap dies fit in here.

Lastly, there are the 32 ray Cap dies. Again, logically they seem to fit in here at the end, as all 1826 and later Cap dies have 32 rays. As stated before, (CA NA) Eagle dies also appear in 1826.

I have never encountered a 31 ray Cap die. VERY INTERESTING!

Appearing for the first time in 1826 is the Eagle die with no period between but with period after REPUBLICA MEXICANA. (CA NA.) I know of no LEGITIMATE 1825's with this type of Eagle die. I have only seen two examples and I own them both. I believe both to be likely counterfeits, but have not done any SG tests. They both weigh in correctly, but look quite suspicious. They both have 32 ray Cap dies which would likely be correct if legitimate examples exist.

My underweight example is a 32 ray/(CA.NA) model. It looks better than the other two suspects, but? It has a heavy vertical die break along the right curve of the o in Do. The field on the left of the break is raised. There is a long diagonal die crack from the lower part of the break up across the date. If it is bogo, then kudos to its originator! If he didn't work for the mint, he should have!

Macro122 Interesting SG results. If the readings are correct, then you have a definite counterfeit at 70% silver and two suspicious coins at 84% and 78.5% silver. Those 2 readings are lower than I would normally expect for real coins and I wonder if the conditions of your test are providing accurate results.

Please try testing something like a US silver dollar. See if you get 10.3.

I just realized that there was a typo in the third paragraph of my post from yesterday (2-13-11 at 9:20 am).




The Eagle die type in parentheses should have read (CA.NA.) not (CA.NA)

swamperbob:

I did not realize that a small nearly weightless piece of tape would have any affect on the process. The nylon thread that I used was also a bit stretchy too.

Are you using stainless steel or silver wire because they have similar SG's as the .903 silver coin? Or to avoid any buoyancy affects with lighter SG materials?

I had thought about fitting a rubber o-ring around the edge of the coin and attaching it to a thread. Would this have similar problems as the tape, even if its weight was accounted for?

How did you keep the coin from falling out of the loop? Do you have pliable wire that bends to snugly wrap around the edge of the coin?

I also bought a gallon of distilled water to use once I get the suspension issue corrected. Will that make any difference as opposed to tap water?

swamperbob:

Thanks for the additional info and the diagram. That helps a lot! I have a 100 gram digital scale. I hope I can get a sufficent amount of water, the coin and apparatus all to total less than 100 grams? I think I can for sure by setting the scale to zero with water and apparatus submerged.

I am hoping to make up the apparatus tonight or tomorrow and see what I come up with. I need to find a 100 gram weight (if possible) in order to calibrate my scale also (just to be sure). This scale was a replacement for a defective one and they didn't send the calibration weight with it.

swamperbob:

I think I may have finally gotten the SG testing to work properly.

I made an apparatus to hold the coin similar to the one you diagrammed. The weight of the apparatus submerged was 0.17 grams. I filled the cup about 3/4 full of distilled water. With the cup and water on the scale, I zeroed the scale. Then I submerged the coin while contained in the apparatus and recorded the weight. I subtracted 0.17 from each reading to obtain the submerged weight of the coin.

I tested 11 Durango 8 Reales pieces as follows:

1825 Dry Weight = 25.37g In Water = 2.46g SG = 10.31
1825 Dry Weight = 26.77g In Water = 2.60g SG = 10.30
1825 Dry Weight = 26.69g In Water = 2.60g SG = 10.27

Those are the three that I tested previously and got readings of 9.95, 10.20 and 10.11 with the scotch tape and nylon thread used to hold the coin.

I tested several 1834's for two reasons. (1) I have several varieties including a couple that had crestless eagles. (2) I have run across one odd Cap die and one odd Eagle die that are significantly different than all of the others that I have found of that era. They are both found in 1834, but are not paired together. Each is from a different hub than any others that I have encountered. The Eagle die ironically is the one on the plate coin in Dunigan/Parker. I wanted to test those and several others to be certain of their authenticity.

a 1834 Dry Weight = 26.83g In Water = 2.60g SG = 10.32
b 1834 Dry Weight = 26.93g In Water = 2.62g SG = 10.28
c 1834 Dry Weight = 27.10g In Water = 2.64g SG = 10.27
d 1834 Dry Weight = 26.36g In Water = 2.54g SG = 10.38
e 1834 Dry Weight = 26.81g In Water = 2.60g SG = 10.31
f 1834 Dry Weight = 27.14g In Water = 2.66g SG = 10.20
g 1834 Dry Weight = 26.11g In Water = 2.52g SG = 10.36
h 1834 Dry Weight = 24.56g In Water = 2.66g SG = 9.23

a,e and h have crestless eagles. a and e look good and pass the SG test. h is no doubt a bogo. This coin grades AU and has semi-prooflike surfaces! It is virtually mark free except for some significant pits from a rusty Eagle die. The rust is most noticeable below the I in REPUBLICA, between A M, around the period at the end of MEXICANA and to the right of the snake at the top edge of the wing to the right. This is an excellent counterfeit.

b,f and g all have the odd Eagle die mentioned previously. They all have the same Cap die as well - so all are the same die marriage. f is a little off I believe due to what appears to be lacquer on the surface of the coin. This coin was purchased from Mike Dunigan mainly because it was of the odd reverse type. I pointed out this odd Eagle die to him at that time. g was from the Ponterio auction of a well known collection.

The odd Eagle die (b,f and g) has a die crack that runs through the X in MEXICANA similar to that on Riddell's counterfeit #370. It is definitely not from that die though. To make things even more interesting, c and d also have die cracks running through the X in MEXICANA! They are distictly different dies from each other, different than (b,f and g) as well as the counterfeit. And all these pieces check out in appearance and SG.

d also has the odd Cap die previously mentioned.

Let me know what you think of this analysis.

swamperbob:

Contact me at my email address and I can send you the bogo 1834 and the Go with inverted N to study. Also, I can try and dig up the edge mirror and send that along as well.

I tried to locate your email address and could not locate it. I may have opened your earlier letter on my daughter's PC/ Could you write again - swamperbob22 @aol.com