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Would You Still Buy Silver As An Investment At This Price?

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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  03:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Never a problem with disagreements, especially when backed up with reasoning.

It would be interesting to look at the ten-year prices from 1975-1984, five years on either side of the big silver peak. Anyone got their old redbooks handy?
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HalfDollarDave's Avatar
United States
79 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HalfDollarDave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a few questions from a bullion noob:

I saw a post a while back in this thread that the price of silver tends to settle around 1/16 the price of gold. What if, for whatever reason, the price of gold drops sharply, would the price of silver drop just as quickly, or would there be a slight delay?

I saw earlier some people arguing that flooding the market may or may not decrease the price of gold, what if silver mines around the world became inspired by the high price of silver, and doubles their effort to find it, and increases the overall amount of silver on the market (assuming that effort pays off)? What would that do to prices?

As of right now, should someone who has absolutely no silver buy what they can get (allowing money for expenses and whatnot, I'm sure no one would say go hungery for silver).

Also, is there any correlation between silver and other PM's (Platinum, Paladium, etc) like there is between silver and gold?
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The au/ag ratio is mostly a myth, held over from the days when the gubmint controlled the prices of both. In the open market, the ratio has bounced all over the place (see historic charts at kitco). They certainly don't move in lockstep, in any event.

The only correlation I've ever seen is that pt is generally worth more than au, but that's hardly a 100% certainty.
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DNA's Avatar
United States
2734 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  7:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DNA to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They certainly don't move in lockstep, in any event.

Truer words have never been said. Especially this last year where silver's been beating up gold in the school parking lot and taking its lunch money!

The "16 to 1" silver-to-gold ratio (established centuries before the United States even existed) is based on mining output. Roughly 16 ounces of silver is mined for every ounce of gold. In 1792, the U.S. free coinage silver/gold ratio was fixed at 15 to 1.

One reason why silver has risen more than gold is the belief that silver has been price-suppressed in the COMEX. True or not, is is worth remembering that in a truly free trading system, gold and silver are not locked into any sort of price ratio with one another.
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DNA's Avatar
United States
2734 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DNA to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
2) Collectors who (don't want to pay) high silver prices may either quit saving halves, or get rid of everything but a single set. If they don't collect, they don't need a 38d--decreased demand.

An excellent reason why numismatic values don't shoot up in lockstep with bullion value. Skyrocketing bullion value raises the cost of acquiring common date silver coins for a collection, causes more collections to be sold and less new collections to be started.

Any sort of (traditional) numismatic premium for many common Walking Liberty halves has been surpassed by their bullion value.

If there's one "worry" I have, it's that if silver stayed over $100/oz, some of my rarer silver coins (such as my VF-20 1938-D Walker) might not regain any sort of numismatic premium and may get "stuck" being worth only bullion value. Which would at least be a high bullion value by today's standards.

I paid $40 for the '38-D. If silver hit $110.60/Oz., the coin would be worth $40 in bullion value. Would it have any numismatic premium at that point? That, my CCF friends, is the pertinent question.

Quote:
It would be interesting to look at the ten-year prices (of a 1938-D Half-Dollar) from 1975-1984
.
The 1980 silver spike to $50/oz. wasn't even close to obliterating the numismatic premium for a 1938-D Walker, but two more years of steady silver increases could bring us to that level.
Edited by DNA
04/20/2011 8:32 pm
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another point to remember is that while there are gold mines, there are very few silver mines. Silver production comes mainly from silver-as-a-byproduct-of-something-else mines.

So while it might be possible to double gold production in response to higher prices, doubling silver production might mean doubling copper production first.
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Silverhawk74's Avatar
United States
3670 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  11:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with DNA, that is the basis of the ratio, say 16 oz of silver mined for every oz of gold eh....
Edited by Silverhawk74
04/20/2011 11:39 pm
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The only correlation I've ever seen is that pt is generally worth more than au, but that's hardly a 100% certainty. - BiggFredd

There have been a very few times in the last 30 or so years when the price of gold was higher than the price of platinum. If that should ever occur again, consider it a MASSIVE buy signal for platinum.


Quote:
Another point to remember is that while there are gold mines, there are very few silver mines. Silver production comes mainly from silver-as-a-byproduct-of-something-else mines. - BiggFredd

Usually, this is because even small amounts of gold can be worth mining but small amounts of silver are not. Copper mining and processing often has gold and silver as by-products. Copper mines can sometimes pay all of their expenses via selling their by-product gold and silver. If they can do this, their copper production is practically pure profit... and is produced in MUCH greater tonnage.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2011  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
True or not, is is worth remembering that in a truly free trading system, gold and silver are not locked into any sort of price ratio with one another. - DNA

The only thing that establishes this ratio are the amounts of both available in the Earth's crust. Both are desirable items, so their prices tend to be determined by their scarcity. Since gold is more scarce than silver, it is more highly valued. In time, that will change because silver is MUCH more useful than gold. Gold may be pretty but silver is genuinely useful in the manufacture of expensive and useful things.

As to the "truly free trading system"... are we sure that we have this? Market manipulation is not an unheard of event. Although there are a lot of factors involved in the prices of silver and gold, the price of silver is moving higher at a considerably faster rate than is the price of gold. Something else seems to be at work here, whatever it may be.

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DNA's Avatar
United States
2734 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2011  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DNA to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't say we have a "truly free trading system" , I just said that the gold/silver ratio is not fixed in such a system.

Physical shortages and the loss of silver from non-recovered industrial uses would rise silver's spot price relative to gold's in a "truly free trading system".

As biggfredd says, dedicated silver mines are rare (there are three new such mines in Mexico) and most newly-mined silver is the result of mining other metals, making it hard to "ramp up" silver production, again this would boost silver spot prices in a "truly free trading system".
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2011  05:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I agree with DNA, that is the basis of the ratio, say 16 oz of silver mined for every oz of gold eh....

Which might be a reason for a 16:1 price ratio, but only if the two metals were 100% interchangeable for all uses, which they're not.

All you need do to see why this won't work is to compare the prices of any two coins, one with 16 times the mintage of the other. For example, the svdb vs 22d, or 09s vs 27d cents.
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United States
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HalfDollarDave's Avatar
United States
79 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2011  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HalfDollarDave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, so would you guys tell a guy who is on the fence about getting some silver to buy now when the price isn't sky high? Or should he hold off? Also, what types of silver should one buy, rounds like ASE's and Maple Leaves, or bars, or bags of junk silver?
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muddler's Avatar
United States
7193 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2011  10:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add muddler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For pure investing the one ounce rounds would be my choice. They are consistent in purity and weight. For dooms day investing 90% silver would allow you smaller mediums to buy your commodities such as bread or milk when the paper dollar ceases to have value.
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harrison2's Avatar
Mexico
1304 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2011  11:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harrison2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave, I think more about teh abiality to sell what you have WHEN you need the cash...so, here in Mexico, that means the 1 oz libertad. You can walk into just about any bank and they'll buy it back from you...INSTANTLY at a fixed price. Doesn't mean that's all I have....but it's QUICK!
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