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Valued Member
Canada
129 Posts |
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Moderator
 Canada
10463 Posts |
Most people do not realize that grading at ICCS is now done by Scott... he has been doing so for a few years now.
Brian has done a ton for this hobby, not only with his certification service, but his publications in the CN Journal on Victorian varieties and Canadian tokens. But, Brian's eyesight is not as sharp as it used to be....
Some people call it grading creep, some people call it preferential service with high volume customers... but I think it simply boils down to the fact you are now getting a different opinion of grade - and that is all they really offer - an opinion.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
SPP - Very well said.
You are a voice of reason and logic 
3rd party graders are certainly only "expressing an opinion" - hopefully if you are paying for it, or are relying on it as confidence in your purchase / investment, it will be a correct one.
Unfortunately, whether due to the pressures of business demands, or preferential service, or any number of other factors - there's no doubt that within the industry of 3rd party grading, whether you call it "grade creep" or whatever, there has been a degradation in the assumption that coins in 3rd party holders / slabs are any more accurately / correctly graded than most experienced & knowledgeable collectors could do themselves. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
Personally, I'm finding Scott's grading (present time) at ICCS MORE strict than Brian's grading in his later years (last 2 to 3 years).
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
ICCS VF20, NGC VF30.
Edit: If this coin is cross-graded, I'll say VF-20 each, since it was in the ICCS holder first.
Edited by jg86
10/30/2013 12:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9867 Posts |
I agree with jg86,if it was cross graded they both gave VF20.
IMO still obv 15,rev 20 just too much wear on the shoulder and collar.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1461 Posts |
Interesting. I get the feeling that a few here feel that coins graded by non Canadian TPGs that are cross graded by ICCS get a free grade pass based on a previous grade. I'm sure you'll admit if indeed that's the case, it's fundamentally flawed and creates some undesired inconsistencies within the ICCS grading machine. Most were correct as the coin was graded VF20 and cross graded the same.  Edited by TheCoinHunter
10/30/2013 11:34 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
No. I don't think coins from NGC or PCGS get a free grade pass by ICCS. I don't think that American companies would want to issue their usual grade when ICCS has already graded it a full grade lower.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
Jg86. This coin was first graded by NGC and then by ICCS. NGC never saw an ICCS grade.
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Valued Member
Canada
147 Posts |
There is a general anti-NGC sentiment here lol.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
686 Posts |
Coinhunter - My bad. I was thinking it was the other way around.
Interesting. I've never bought much circulated stuff in PCGS/NGC holders (it tends to be overgraded, and sells for more than it should, since many people buy the holder). I 100% agree with the grade that was assigned by both companies on this one. I think ICCS would have done an honest assessment, but if they were between grades (say F-15 and VF-20), the NGC grade may have swayed them.
moejaber - I am far from anti-NGC. Some of my highest graded ICCS coins were once in lower grade NGC holders. Hate to give away any of my "secrets", but I know someone else on here shares my sentiments on the matter. The secret to making money in this hobby is not knowing how to grade, it's knowing how ICCS grades. If you can find a PCGS/NGC MS62-MS63 because it doesn't have a ton of eye appeal, and the strike wasn't the best, but the fields are perfect, you're probably holding an ICCS MS64.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
jg86....that's enough info!!!(lol).
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
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Moderator
Canada
10463 Posts |
Quote:
The secret to making money in this hobby is not knowing how to grade, it's knowing how ICCS grades. As a dealer, that statement is very true. Coin Mart has a couple of dealers (e.g., Roman Tam) who have very sharp eyes and they have made a lot of money cracking various slabs getting nicer Canadian coins into ICCS holders. I have made a lot of money cherry picking mint rolls and other dealers inventories, because I know what to expect from ICCS. For example, this coin: https://goccf.com/t/105585Almost every Canadian dealer I know, would try and get this coin back into an MS-64 Red holder, possibly with multiple submissions, knowing that it used to be in one - but to any discerning collector, this is a MS-63 Red-Brown coin - it always will be. In a 64 Red holder, it is basically in a "coffin", because most collectors would not pay 64 money for it. Who would I be fooling, try to get an ICCS "upgrade"? For the upper levels of Canadian coins, the collectors that purchase the ICCS-graded upgrades sometimes those who buy into the holder and/or eye-appeal (I know of several customers who chase and buy the highest grade they can - regardless of the coin itself). These are nice coins, but when it comes to my collection, I have different standards of grade and quality. I have rejected many ICCS MS-66 Red small cents into my collection, especially in recent years, because they failed to measure up to the coins I already have (either in older ICCS MS-65 holders or PCGS MS-65 Red holders). Eventually, the very best of my collection will end up in PCGS holders, because I really dislike how ICCS grades from the MS-65 to MS-67 levels. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
10/30/2013 11:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
SPP - again you make valid points.
As much as I like ICCS, if I solely collectred high end 'red' copper, I would be looking at PCGS instead of ICCS because this is one area that ICCS's standards do not meet PCGS's.
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Posted 10/29/2013 11:48 pm
