Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Some Fun Colonial Coins - Coin #2

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 410Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
8820 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2022  11:16 pm Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Not mine, though I'd love to have them both I thought I'd have some fun and see what you all thought of these two colonial coins. Can you guess what the coin is, the grade each got and the value of each?

This one is a challenge without extensive previous colonial knowledge and a Red Book at hand.

Second coin up is graded by NGC:

"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
9080 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2022  01:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a 1714 Gloucester Courthouse shilling. Rare, only 2 are known. This one came up for sale last week. Apparently Gloucester County, Virginia not the better known Gloucester, Massachusetts.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
Highlights of my coin collection: https://coins.www.collectors-societ...aspx?s=31920
Help me optimize my photo setup: http://goccf.com/t/411871
Edited by numismatic student
05/09/2022 01:18 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7809 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2022  05:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I enjoyed looking at both examples.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
68880 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2022  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's for sure! Way out of my league.
Valued Member
United States
118 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2022  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mrhakfbacon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This one looks VG-Fine. I think it is a 1714 Gloucester token. I think it was going to be planned as a shilling. Heard of a possibly dated 1715 piece.
Pillar of the Community
United States
8820 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2022  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Again NumismaticStudent has hit the planchet with the die dead center! The 1714 Gloucester Shilling...



From the Heritage sale where it sold for $90,000 with the fees:


Quote:
1714 Gloucester Shilling
Fine 12 NGC. Breen-237, W-8180, R.8. Ex: Long Island Collection.


The 1714 Gloucester shilling is an issue collectors come to know through osmosis, generally after years of flipping through the pages of the annual Guide Book. It is not an issue they are ever likely to have encountered "in the wild." The example offered here, last seen publicly 40 years ago, is one of only two pieces known to the numismatic community.

Sylvester Sage Crosby documented the 1714 Gloucester shilling in his 1875 opus, Early Coins of America, where he wrote:

"Of the history of the earliest of these, called the Gloucester Token, nothing is known. It appears to have been intended as a pattern for a shilling of a private coinage, by Richard Dawson of Gloucester [county?] Virginia. It is probable that no tokens of this intended issue were actually put in circulation, as we find no specimen in silver. But two specimens of this are known, both struck in brass. A full description cannot be given of it, as both impressions are very imperfect, and together they do not supply the entire legends with certainty."


It was not until 1976 or shortly thereafter that one of the two examples (ex: Appleton) was found to be a cast counterfeit. As luck would have it, this piece turned up a couple of years later. In its only public appearance to date, the Bowers and Ruddy cataloger explained the circumstances surrounding its discovery:

"It was discovered around March, 1981 when a Gloucester resident mentioned to a neighborhood woman that he was a coin collector. The woman, who like the collector prefers to remain anonymous, told the collector that she had some coins and offered to sell them. The local collector weighed the coins and paid her as though all of the pieces were .900 fine silver. Actually, there was a mixture of material, what is often called a 'dresser drawer accumulation.'"


The collector eventually identified the token, which was authenticated by the International Numismatic Society Authentication Bureau, and he and the original owner partnered in bringing the coin to auction. Not only did the discovery of this example bring the population of Gloucester tokens back up to two, it also helped clarify the issue's origins. The legends and devices on each of the two known examples are incomplete, but by comparing them, a more complete picture emerges. The obverse depicts a building with chimneys at both ends and XII below. Around the obverse is the legend, GLOVCESTER COVRTHOVSE VIRGINIA. The central reverse motif is a pentagonal star with the legend ANNO DOM 1714 RIGHAVLT DAWSON around. According to the Bowers and Ruddy cataloger, William DeHardit, editor of a local newspaper in Gloucester County, stated "that a family with the last name Righault owned land near the Gloucester Courthouse, the structure believed to be depicted on the obverse of the token. The land was granted to Christopher Righault in 1654 by the Virginia Land Office." According to DeHardit, "[t]he name Dawson is associated with the Abingdon Church section of Gloucester County."

Crosby described the Gloucester token as "a pattern for a shilling" that was never put into circulation. The Bowers and Ruddy cataloger contends: "As tobacco was the legal currency then in Virginia, the token must have functioned as some kind of warehouse receipt or scrip issue. There is no reason to assume, as some have done, that it represented a pattern for a silver coin or a substitute for silver."

This example is graded Fine 12, but its technical grade is less important than its status as one of two known. The planchet is crude and the tan-gold surfaces exhibit uneven strike definition. About 50% to 60% of the original design remains clear. To say this represents a significant opportunity for the most advanced Colonial enthusiasts would be an understatement. A rarity of the highest order.

Listed on page 43 of the 2022 Guide Book.

"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
8820 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2022  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an interesting letter from Eric Newman to Harry Bass on that second 1714 Gloucester shilling mentioned in the description.




Quote:
Mrhakfbacon Heard of a possibly dated 1715 piece.


After the 1981 discovery, a third related token was uncovered. A local Gloucester resident came upon this unique piece while searching for Indian relics with a metal detector in the vicinity of the old courthouse. This latest find is smaller than the other examples at 18.2 mm. and is only 25.3 grains, leading some to call it a sixpence. It is extremely worn. On the obverse the central image (if there was one) is completely worn off but a few letters in the legend are legible; at about 7:00 o'clock are the letters "VLT ." (from Righault) and part of a beaded outer border, the remainder is worn smooth until about 3:00 to 4:00 o'clock where the letters "N . DO" (from anno domini, AN. DOM.) are visible. On the reverse at about 2:00 o'clock is a single point of the star and, from the legend, "715" The remainder of the reverse is worn smooth, except for what might be the tip of a point on the star at about 8:00 o'clock. Thus, this smaller size token shows a new date, 1715, and displays a reworking of the legend as the name Righault along with the AN. DOM. are on the obverse while the legend continued with the date on the reverse. Because of the large blank space it is not known if the location, Gloucester Courthouse Virginia, was mentioned. If it was on the obverse then the word Dawson would not fit and, if his name was included, would need to have been placed on the reverse. If the location was not on the obverse then Dawson could have easily fit in the available space and the location, if added, could have been on the reverse. This coin has yet to appear in the numismatic market. The Red Book says, "A similar but somewhat smaller piece, possibly dated 1715 exists. The condition of the unique piece is too poor for a positive attribution."
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
23694 Posts
 Posted 05/11/2022  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@west, thx for helping me learn something this evening!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
United States
5653 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2022  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well that's a really excellent coin and a load of history with it to boot. I love it! Thanks for sharing Westcoin. I too learned something new tonight.

-CH27
Collector of U.S. Coins, Varieties, and Colonial Coinage
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
839 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2022  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting information and discussion, westcoin. Thanks for sharing!
My U.S. Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278808/
My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/
My 20th Century U.S. Type Set - Proofs only, No Gold https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/co...sets/396301/
Pillar of the Community
United States
8820 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2022  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not the coin pictured in my post, but the Garrett specimen (and first Gloucester token discovered) has been traced back to the 1870's, here is it's provenance:

Two genuine 1714 Gloucester tokens are known, The one with the longest history was probably once owned by George W. Cram, this is the same piece Sylvester Crosby had seen when he wrote his description on for his book). By March 1874, Boston collector Lorin G. Parmelee owned it, and he proudly showed it to the members of the Boston Numismatic Society on the 5th of that month at the meeting. At that time Parmelee told the society members that he had just recent purchased the specimen. The token appeared 16 years later as lot #512 of the Bangs & Company sale of Parmelee's collection, where it realized $26.00 in the sale that saw the Crosby plate New Yorke Token realize $9.50 and a Willow Tree Shilling sell for $25.00

The Parmelee sale specimen reappeared as lot #833 in B. Max Mehl's May 1922 sale of the Ten Eyck Collection where is was purchased by Waldo Newcomer of Baltimore. When Newcomer's collection was sold to Mehl in 1931, the Gloucester token ultimately passed to John Work Garrett's collection. The Garrett collection was sold by Bowers & Ruddy during 1979-1980 and the Gloucester token appeared in part III of the firm's sale of the collection as lot #1318 realizing $36,000. Dealer, Don Kagin purchased the coin at the sale, it later reappeared as lot #147 in a Stack's December sale, "The John L. Roper, 2nd Collection" there it was purchased by a noted specialist, Don Groves Partrick, who retained it until his collection was auctioned by his family members after his passing. Heritage was the firm selected by the Partrick family and the Gloucester token sold at the 2021 FUN Show Auction as lot #3903. To whom it sold this time, I do not know, I can say it brought an incredible $180,000 with buyer fees.

I must say that most of the research on the provenance of the Gloucester token was done by Michael J. Hodder and was published in an article in "The Colonial Newsletter" Volume 37 Number 4 in 1997 on page 1679. The entire article is worth a read if this token interests you further. The periodical can be found online at the Newman Numismatic Portal. Mr. Hodder also has a lot of interesting information on the much smaller Gloucester token dated 1715 in the article.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
05/12/2022 3:31 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
8820 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2022  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The more I read about these Gloucester tokens the more fascinating the story becomes, there is still research to do on them, the Colonial Newsletter article by Micheal Hodder is an excellent jumping off point, and the archives of Eric Newman contain a few odds and ends like the letter to Harry Bass I posted, cast counterfeits, new discoveries, and old collections of famous collectors are all woven into the Gloucester token story - best part? It's not over by any means, not even close.

This is why I'm drawn to studying Colonial coinage, it is never ending research and lots of uncovered secrets to ferret out through study, reading and searching through old archives of documents.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
2838 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2022  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@westcoin, Thank you for posting these and for the fascinating history. This is a long way out of my wheelhouse, and I enjoyed learning something today!
  Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 410Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.64 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: