| Author |
 Replies: 981 / Views: 96,426 |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
Outstanding coins, thanks to all for sharing them.
|
|
Valued Member
 United States
414 Posts |
@GERMANICVS the Coburg Gotha doubles are tough beasts to find! I have had a chance to bid on a few but despite what I though were pretty strong bids, I was crushed, miserably... Yours has strong detail but it does look a bit pale as if cleaned. Didit grade straight? Nonetheless, an excellent coin and  worthy. Definitely one that is on my list to get. I've been chasing two duals, one from Schwarzburg - Sondershausen and the other from Sachsen-Meiningen. I love the helmeted knights on the reverse. They are much more common than your Coburg but hard to find in high grades. One day... @PaulCT - I shall dub thee " ebay Guru" henceforth. I NEVER have such luck with coins on ebay. People ALWAYS know when a good coin is a good coin and I have to fight for it and usually pay a premium to win, like this recent win: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PRUSSIA-Ge...p=true&rt=nc: Perhaps I should move back to older more obscure thalers and give you some competition? |
|
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1852 Posts |
Edited by GERMANICVS
05/03/2018 02:11 am
|
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
cableguy815 To be honest I don't see it as luck!To be lucky,in my opinion,means to have almost no clue about this coins and find a rare one,with the proper description, for 100$ and buy it like it was normal to happen that way.As I said before I'm spending around 4 hours, maybe more, a day, scouting for crowns and thalers like the Worms one and I see them as a reward for my dedication/passion/patience.Plus, my max.200£/month budget for coins means I need to buy smart and fast.For instance,the last one presented was on a 7 days auction with no bids and I convinced the seller to relist the coin for a fixed price that we both agreed.It doesn't sound fair, but if I was going to wait for the 'big boys' to show up I would have ended up as a watcher!Trust me,i wish I could afford to buy double thalers like yours but unfortunately it's impossible at least at the moment.I'm still dreaming about my first decent Wildman thaler not to mention the top coins,you,Zohar, WCG, 1c5d or GERMANICVS presented on this forum!As for the obscure thalers I can assure you there's plenty of collectors knowing their stuff that operate in these waters too, but there's always room for more so you're more than welcomed!Last but not least,I'm not surprised by what you paid for the 1792 Prussia thaler since most of the type are very worn and yours is in a top grade!
Edited by paulCT
05/03/2018 2:10 pm
|
|
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
@GERMANICVS You sir are a man after my own heart. We are kindred spirits it would seem with mutual interests. Those doubles are magnificent. I also especially like the Frankfurt city view variant. Yours is a good example with clearly visible luster. I do see what appears to be PVC on the reverse (date side) - be careful with that, it can ruin your whole coin. A very quick dip in acetone will do the trick. As for your Coburg Gotha double, EF45 seems low to me, the details are AU to my eye (at least based on picture). At the end of the day, who cares though... 45 or 55 it's a magnificent piece. The grades are irrelevant as I personally would NEVER consider selling my doubles unless I'm broke and on the street. The Oldenburg doubles are especially rare and very expensive but I have seen quite a few selling last year. The Kothen pops up here and there. The Waldecks are tough as well. I only look at international auctions (not German exclusively). These coins in the US cost far more as they are usually graded. The Anhalt I got was actually from Japan of all places :) Of all the doubles I got, this is the only graded double I purchased and I paid a good premium for it. This is something I never do but I made an exception because of 2 main reasons. 1. This is the very same double that was auctioned by Heritage in 2007 that was previously part of the Blue Ridge Collection - https://coins.ha.com/itm/anhalt-ber...ption-071515 See the stain next to the 'A' of Alex, the dink above 'Z' of ZU and the horizontal scratch below the 'R' of Carl. 2. In my view the detail on the coin is SUPERB. At MS61 this coin I strongly believe is under-graded. I agree with the assessment of Heritage in that this is a proof or at least a PL strike. I think the grade was dinked by NGC because of hairlines as was alluded to by Heritage. This beauty has been around the world! @PaulCT Please accept my apologies if I have offended you with my "luck" comment, I meant no offense. I didn't mean to imply that you are lucky because you are clueless and just have blind luck. If anything, this couldn't be further from the truth. My luck comment was more towards the fact that you get opportunities to participate in auctions with little competition because others are clueless or are not as diligent in their search as you clearly are. I've always believed that when a person is repeatedly "lucky" then there is definitely more going on than just luck. I have no doubt you spend a tremendous amount of time scouring for coins (as do I) except I do this more so in the world auction arena and not so much on ebay. As for the Prussia thaler, I always liked that type but as you said yourself, it is almost always well worn or poorly struck or both. I may have paid a good amount for it but all things considered, it's still a third to a half of what a coin in that grade would sell for. My max bid was actually $555. Anyway, speaking of obscure thalers, I picked this one up today for a variety of reasons but one in particular was the driver https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAXONY-1-T...p=true&rt=nc I do have a question for you. I have done a fair bit of research on the type and looked over many historic sales and of all that I've seen in various conditions, I saw only one or two examples of the variation that I acquired. I call it the "full helmet" variation. All the previous sales (with one or two exceptions) have specimens that have an empty helmet. I wasn't able to find anything conclusive abut this being a formal variation but I believe it to be. What do you think? |
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
cableguy815 First of all, there's no need to apologize,i didn't considered your luck statement offensive at all!Obviously it has to be some luck element involved but more often it's about the time you spend and the way you search.Most of the time,rare coins on ebay are described as unknown/unresearched.With auction arena I agree is very hard to get good stuff unless you pay some money since most of the bidders know what they're bidding for.Going to the 1586 Saxony thaler, I was there too:)) so I know the coin!I simply watched the auction since the coin was not on my hit list.I only placed a 'test' bid on the J.Georg death thaler and not surprisingly lost. Now,the amount you've paid for it is half,less than half of it's market value, in my book.For those money you generally get a -VF . From my quick research on the type running from 1586 to 1591,HB,Hans Biener I believe,i couldn't find any with that helmet variety, not even different years.No variants mentioned in the catalogue either which can only make me think this could actually be a rare variety.There's also a small difference on the rev.,the central helmet above the c.o.a seems to have different syle of leafs going sideways if I'm not wrong.I think you made a great deal and it's worth further researching the coin! |
|
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Thank you for that information; very interesting. I generally don't go too deep into 17th century coinage (that Teutonic double being the only exception that I've been chasing forever!) and 16th century has been completely out of interest as I find the coins too "crude" looking and easier to fake. Having said that, this particular thaler instantly caught my attention because although there is some signs of circulation, the fields are relatively clean. I looked at a bunch of these and I agree with your assessment. I grade this particular specimen in the AU range, solid XF at the worst. In terms of $ paid, I again agree with your assessment. All in all, I would have left this coin alone as it is outside my interest range. What really compelled me was the odd looking helmet. If I hadn't come across any this variety in my research I'd have been concerned this one was a fake. The fact that I did find a piece or two made me firmly believe this was a rarer variety. Who is Hans Biener and where did you read that he was in search of a full helmet variety? Once I get the coin I will do a deeper analysis and some more research on it as it really piqued my interest. I saw the Death of George thaler but opted to pass - don't like mounted/holed coins. I picked up an earlier George instead: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAXONY-ALB...047675.l2557 I don't think it's anything special but a good & solid XF and @ that price why not? That's less than 1/2 of catalogue. |
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
cableguy815 I would say it's at least XF and since most of them available are worn, the price would be within the range of 380-500 euros without considering the variety.Hans Biener,HB,was the mintmaster,also in charge of the Augustus thaler types.The J.Georg is an early type,one of the most common of the time,well preserved,a few varieties known(don't know what variety yours is),with the coin keeping an aprox. similar design until 1656.A great deal again!I have an 1632,Dresden mint,VF-,cleaned,and though not great I like it because it's huge!
Edited by paulCT
05/03/2018 5:31 pm
|
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
German States BRUNSWICK-LÜNEBURG-CALENBERG-HANNOVER Thaler KM# 233 1734 IAB   |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
574 Posts |
|
|
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Nice taler Paul  Does it have the purplish hue the coin picture depicts? I love this kind of toning in coins. |
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
cableguy815 The coin was in fact a forgery!I bought it a year ago and got refunded.It was eventually resold as genuine to someone with probably 0 knowledge since the coin was made of stainless steel!
Edited by paulCT
05/09/2018 3:08 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
@paulCT now that sucks that someone else is stuck with a fake! This is the reason I want my coins slabbed by NGC, PCGS, or ANACS
|
|
Valued Member
186 Posts |
cableguy815 Here's another two that just arrived today, 1725 EPH,1655 HS,Wildman thalers,bought from the same ebay dealer you got your two saxony thalers(Christian,J.Georg.I'll have to have them checked tomorrow again to make sure they're silver as I have some serious doubts unfortunately!I had a chat with two Jewelers today,one said they're silver second said they're not!!First one weights 29.2grams, second 28.7grams.I don't know but If these are forgeries too I'm done with ebay!!     Edited by paulCT
05/09/2018 5:20 pm
|
|
Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Paul, I'm glad you got a chance to participate in those offerings and walk away with pretty cool coins. He had a lot of GREAT material this time around.
I know this seller and he is A+ in my book. If anything is off, he will make it right. As for authenticity, your coins look legit to me and they do seem like strikes as opposed to casts (planchet defects, stress marks, etc). Also, how are the jewelers you spoke with determining if they are silver or not? I hope they are not just using magnetism and/or ping/ring tests because these older thalers (especially with planchet defects) WILL NOT sound right. Have you tried doing an SG test yourself?
I am very curious about the first coin you posted, the 1734 Brunswick thaler. Are you sure it was a forgery? It looks like an amazing forgery if it is. And stainless steel?!?!?!?! I have never heard of that before. It was magnetic? What I don't understand is how was that tone achieved with stainless steel? How is ANY tone achieved with stainless steel for that matter?
|
| |
Replies: 981 / Views: 96,426 |
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 05/02/2018 6:27 pm
