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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
2523 Posts |
AH 740 - 1340 CE Billon Tanka Dehli Sultans Date written in words   The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
05/22/2026 07:56 am
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Moderator
 United States
188342 Posts |
Excellent!   |
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Moderator
United States
188342 Posts |
We have a long Holiday weekend in the USA. I will not be around to update the topic title, so please try to follow this schedule.  Today, 22 May: Continue with 1340 (AH 740) Saturday, 23 May: 1339 (AH 739) Sunday, 24 May: 1338 (AH 738) Monday, 25 May: 1337 (AH 737) Tuesday, 26 May: 1336 (AH 736) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1842 Posts |
I know we're past this now, but I already wrote the post so I guess I'll just throw it in a bit late. It seems like this was a very chaotic power change, made even more difficult for modern, western observers to piece together with all the dates being converted to CE for us. I spent some time trying to find sources that recorded this timeline in the Hajiri calendar and it was very difficult. The most important date here is the death of Öz Beg (Uzbeg) Khan since it seems most accounts agree that Jani Beg was either appointed regent or seized power by having his older brother, Tini Beg, assassinated (or both). If it is the case that Öz Beg Kahn died in 741, then there is no question for me that a coin of Jani Beg Kahn dated 742 (with 743 also known for the type, so not a frozen date) is representative of 742 AH entirely and therefore 1341. He was de facto ruler for all of 742 in my eyes, even if he was officially elected khan in the later part of that year (1342 CE). The source I found that wasn't behind a pay wall was The Mohammedan Dynasties: Chronological and Genealogical Tables with Historical Introductions by Stanley Lane-Poole. He notes in the preface that the Hijri dates in the book are more accurate, as they are directly from Arabic historical sources, whereas the A. D. dates are given as the earlier corresponding year converted from that AH date. On page 230, his chart of the khans of the Golden Horde gives 741 AH as the ascension date for both Tini Beg and Jani Beg. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_...1up?hl=en-USAll this to say I was in the aye camp |
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Pillar of the Community
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1842 Posts |
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No, not necessarily. If I understand the conversion process properly, if an AH coin is pre- 990 / 1582 (the year that Gregorian was established) then IMO it's conversion should tied to the Julian calendar. That sounds like a vote for option B to me. Very reasonable. That's a nice looking tanka BTW! |
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188342 Posts |
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I know we're past this now, but I already wrote the post so I guess I'll just throw it in a bit late. It is appreciated and thank you for sharing. Quote:
All this to say I was in the aye camp |
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5173 Posts |
A listing of the upcoming dates, as of June 2025...
1339 - tdziemia
1338 - EddieDiz, Spence, tdziemia, ttkoo
1337 - tdziemia
1336 (AH 736) - none found
1335 - ttkoo
1334 - january1may, tdziemia
1333 - Spence, ttkoo
1332 - ttkoo
1331 (AH 731) - none found
1330 (AH 730) - EddieDiz?
1329 - Spence, tdziemia, ttkoo
1328 (AH 728) - none found
1327 - Spence; ttkoo
1326 - ttkoo
1325 - bd251, tdziemia, ttkoo
1324 - ttkoo
1323 - ttkoo; january1may?
1322 - ttkoo
1321 - ttkoo
1320 - Spence, ttkoo; JohnConduitt (frozen date)
1319 - Spence, ttkoo
1318 - ttkoo
1317 - ttkoo; zorosenpai?
1316 - ttkoo
1315 - ttkoo
1314 - ttkoo
1313 - ttkoo
1312 - ttkoo
1311 - Spence, ttkoo
1310 - ttkoo
1309 (AH 709) - none found
1308 - ttkoo (AH 708)
1307 (AH 706; AH 707?) - ttkoo? (AH 707)
1306 (AH 705) - none found
1305 - ttkoo
1304 - ttkoo
1303 - ttkoo
1302 - ttkoo
1301 (AH 700) - ttkoo?
1300 (AH 699) - none found
1299 - ttkoo
After that I think we're missing almost everything; the 13th century has much worse coverage than the 14th.
AFAICT since then we've found 1336, 1331, and 1328, but 1330 might still be a gap. If we get through 1330, then the next gap is 1309.
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Moderator
United States
188342 Posts |
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A listing of the upcoming dates, as of June 2025... Thank you for sharing this! |
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United States
34409 Posts |
Good to have some movement on this thread again. I believe that this French Gros ala Couronne can be dated to 1340 (Duplessy 262C; Roberts 2473):   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2523 Posts |
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The source I found that wasn't behind a pay wall was The Mohammedan Dynasties: Chronological and Genealogical Tables with Historical Introductions by Stanley Lane-Poole. He notes in the preface that the Hijri dates in the book are more accurate, as they are directly from Arabic historical sources, whereas the A. D. dates are given as the earlier corresponding year converted from that AH date. On page 230, his chart of the khans of the Golden Horde gives 741 AH as the ascension date for both Tini Beg and Jani Beg. Thanks for the link @bd251, very useful. Quote:
That sounds like a vote for option B to me. Very reasonable.
That's a nice looking tanka BTW! Yes, put me in the B camp. Agreed, the 370 & 371 type Dehli tankas are a great example from this era, and the written dates adds some more interest to them numismatically. The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2523 Posts |
Quote:
I believe that this French Gros ala Couronne can be dated to 1340 (Duplessy 262C; Roberts 2473): Another great example @Spense The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2523 Posts |
@january1may An update on my placings. Gaps at 1309, 07 and 06. (a work in slow progress)  The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Moderator
United States
34409 Posts |
Here is a Gros Compagnon from Brabant that can be dated to 1339 (Ghyssen p13.7). I haven't posted it here previously.   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2523 Posts |
Quote:
Here is a Gros Compagnon from Brabant that can be dated to 1339 (Ghyssen p13.7). I haven't posted it here previously. And a nice addition it is too! (Duly noted and added to my list) The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5173 Posts |
Hmm. 1339 is indeed what Numista says, but my googling immediately found this academia.edu article, which attributes this type to 1346 (or later). I'm not sure which source is more reliable, or where does the Numista date come from. I think tdziemia is our resident closest-to-expert on Brabant, so for now we'll await their comment. If their coin is also the same type, we're in an awkward position. [EDIT: their coin is apparently a different subtype, Witte 360, which Numista attributes to 1337 [sic!] and the academia.edu article also attributes to 1346 or later. That's not looking good. I hope we can find some other coin in the right range.] [EDIT 2: this auction lot attributes the Witte 359 type to "December 1339" [sic], which I think would in practice mean 1340. [EDIT 3: ...though tdziemia seems to think that it does literally mean December 1339.] I really don't know whom to trust here. The listing for a variant over here (about 1/8ish down the page) matches the academia.edu dating and might be downstream of it, or both might be downstream of Ghyssen.] |
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Posted 05/22/2026 08:15 am
