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How Far Back Can We Go? Seventh Edition! Ended At 1380 Waiting On 1379

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t360's Avatar
United States
2703 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2023  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FRANCE. Avignon. Flavio Chigi (Papal legate, 1657-1668). Luigino (1667).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/23/2023  08:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There was a time when these small Polish coins were super cheap, and I picked this one up for just over $8.

I missed 1677 because I was on vacation without wifi last week (yes, such places still exist), but my 1677 coin is a Polish 1/4 thaler I picked up at my LCS about 20 years ago for just $6.


Quote:
Flavio Chigi (Papal legate, 1657-1668).

Very cool coin. Without checking the dates, I am guessing that was during a sede vacante? I know that the papal state of Ferrara issued coins in the name of the papal legate during an earlier sede vacante.

We are now in the era of those Polish-Lithuanian copper solidi called "boratinki." I've tried to collect one from each mint; this one is unusual in that it was struck in Kaunas, Lithuania, which I think only operated for a couple of years specifically to produce these.
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 08/23/2023  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I missed 1677 because I was on vacation without wifi last week (yes, such places still exist), but my 1677 coin is a Polish 1/4 thaler I picked up at my LCS about 20 years ago for just $6.
In case anyone wants to see it...

http://goccf.com/t/364499&whichpage=385#3331833
http://goccf.com/t/322163&whichpage=242#2985568
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t360's Avatar
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 Posted 08/23/2023  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Denmark 1 Krone - Frederik III 1666
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Russian Federation
5186 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2023  03:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got @j1m
Not much... the coin is in horrible condition and the pics are almost as bad.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379 How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Sweden, Carl XI, 1/6 öre silvermynt, dated 1666.

In my experience, this is probably the second most common 1666 coin after the boratynka (which I also had, but never made any pics). Numista 18753.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/24/2023  08:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Duchy of Lorraine 1665 teston:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Charles' reign was quite tumultuous. He ascended to the throne of Lorraine in 1625 as consort of Duchess Nicole, whom he then deposed, then abandoned to rule alone (there are coins of 1625-1626 they stuck jointly). Lorraine was invaded by France in 1633, and he was forced to abdicate in favor of his brother in 1634 (there are coins struck 1626-1632 in Charles' name for this first part of his rule). When that brother abdicated within a year, Charles reclaimed the title of duke, but had to reign exile for the next 25 years. This did not stop him from waging various guerilla campaigns against France, during which he occasionally penetrated the southern and eastern frontiers of Lorraine. In 1638 he struck some coins at Remiremont during one his more successful forays. Finally in 1661 the French withdrew from Lorraine and Charles was restored, but that was short lived as the French invaded again in 1670 (he struck coins from 1663 - 1669 including this teston).
He finished his reign in exile, dying in 1675.

Edited by tdziemia
08/24/2023 09:21 am
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 08/24/2023  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We are now in the era of those Polish-Lithuanian copper solidi called "boratinki."


Agree, so rather than posting one, here is a Gulden of John Casmir dated 1665 AD:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 08/24/2023  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
this is probably the second most common 1666 coin

It is indeed one of the more common 1666 coins - I have one too, and I don't even collect Swedish coins! (This one is from an inheritance.)

Sweden 1666, Carl XI, 1/6 öre silvermynt.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

A mintage of 35 million coins on a population of around 1 million at the time - there must have been a certain surplus, kept in drawers and elsewhere!

Sorry for the step back in the sequence of coins - 1665 coin coming up!
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 08/24/2023  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dombes 1665, Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orleans, 1/12 ecu (luigino).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Princess Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orleans was cousin to the French king Louis XIV. By inheritance she was princess, duchess and countess of half a dozen feudal states in France, including the principality of Dombes just outside Lyons.
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t360's Avatar
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 Posted 08/24/2023  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dombes 1665, Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orleans, 1/6 ecu (double luigino)
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/25/2023  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1/12 ecu (luigino)


This is probably a dumb question, but is the origin of this coin's nickname Louis' name (the king), or Louise's name?

If it is the latter, is there any other instance where a coin is nicknamed after a woman? (I don't recall any British coins called a Lizzy or a Vicky).
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 08/25/2023  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Dombes 1665, Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orleans, 1/6 ecu (double luigino)

Nice!

Quote:
This is probably a dumb question, but is the origin of this coin's nickname Louis' name (the king), or Louise's name?

Well, it is not self-evident in any way, so definitely not a dumb question. Luigino - Italian for "little Louis" - refers to king Louis XIV, and it refers to the size of the coin, not of the king ...

Around 1660, France decided to make a push for the trade with the Levant. For unclear reasons, they chose the 1/12 ecu, which weighs just 2.3 g, as the trade coin of choice. That apparently worked well, because soon the demand for the coins rose so that France contracted several feudal states - including Dombes with its princess Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orleans - to mint versions of the coin. Most copied the established design of the French luigino, with a similar portrait and arms that looked as much as possible like the French arms with its three fleur-de-lys. The trade flourished and the demand for the coin grew, and a number of feudal states began copying without France's permission to get their share of the business.

The Dombes version with Anne-Marie-Louise became very sought after by the Levant traders, so much that at times it was valued to twice its nominal value. Several Italian cities and states also copied the French design, with the local ruler. That is the time when the name "luigino" was introduced. When the Anne-Marie-Louise luigini became popular, many began copying the Dombes design, with a lovely lady and an invented coat of arms with something resembling fleur-de-lys. If the city/state was not ruled by a lovely lady, a portrait of the ruler's wife or cousin or someone else associated with the ruling house would do.

It didn't take long before the temptation to lower the silver content of the coins resulted in a dwindling quality of the feudal coins. That was of course discovered by the Levant traders, and their interest in the coin dwindled at the same rate. The flourishing business ended towards the end of the 1660s.

Luigini is a collection area of its own. The standard reference, Cammarano's Corpus Luiginorum (in Italian), lists several hundred numbers, from around 25 different issuers.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/25/2023  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you! I guessed you might know, and the nice history lesson is icing on the cake.


Quote:
here is a Gulden of John Casmir dated 1665 AD


And mine for 1664:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Also a coin with a nickname, tymf, after the guy who conceived it, Andreas Tymf, who was contracted to run several of the Polish and Lithuanian mints under Jan Kazimierz.

This type is almost always weakly stuck (not sure why, as they had ample opportunity to re-design the dies).
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 08/25/2023  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And mine for 1664:


I'll have another one to post tomorrow!

For today, though here is one of those ubiquitous Polish Solidas:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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NumisRob's Avatar
United Kingdom
18132 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great coins - I have nothing now until 1662...

Quote:
is there any other instance where a coin is nicknamed after a woman? (I don't recall any British coins called a Lizzy or a Vicky).

When the circular brass £1 coin was introduced in 1983 and was initially quite unpopular, there were suggestions that it should be nicknamed the 'Maggie' after Margaret Thatcher, who was then Brirish Prime Minister. Thatcher's opponents said this was because the coin was thick, brassy, rough at the edges and was pretending to be a sovereign.
Edited by NumisRob
08/25/2023 3:21 pm
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