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Replies: 3,470 / Views: 123,210 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12005 Posts |
For an example closer to home, another example that most rich people don't go to jail for financial crimes:
The Hunt brothers were not criminally convicted of silver market manipulation, but they were found liable in a civil trial and settled civil charges with regulators.
Charges:
• Market Manipulation: Artificially inflating the world price of silver and silver futures contracts between September 1979 and March 1980.
• Rigging the Silver Futures Market: Accumulating an enormous, leveraged position (over 100 million ounces of physical bullion and massive futures positions) to force short sellers into a corner.
• Using Secret Global Accounts: Sneaking capital through a network of U.S., Swiss, Panamanian, and Bermudan accounts to bypass exchange rules.
• Antitrust Violations (Sherman Antitrust Act): Conspiring to monopolize and restrain trade in the market for silver and silver futures.
• Commodity Exchange Act Violations: Directly breaking federal rules regarding fair trading on commodities exchanges.
• Common Law Fraud: Operating a fraudulent scheme to deceive the public market and drive prices from $9 to over $50 an ounce.
• Racketeering (RICO Act): Nelson Bunker and William Herbert Hunt were explicitly charged with and found liable for civil racketeering for organizing a structured conspiracy with Saudi billionaires and foreign shell companies to manipulate the market.
• Damages & Bankruptcy: The court ordered the brothers to pay over $130 million in damages, which contributed to Nelson Bunker and William Herbert Hunt filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September 1988.
• CFTC Settlement (1989): In a final settlement with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt were each fined $10 million and permanently banned from trading on U.S. commodity markets.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1384 Posts |
Ah okay, I see, I thought when you said in your experience I was going to hear how you had some actual experiences in the market. Like maybe you had some experience with the infamous Bernie Madooff. You know the guy that ran the biggest Ponzi scheme in American history. But he only fleeced about 40,000 people or fools as sadly you call them, not millions of families. And he went to jail for 150 year's, where he died. I suppose not all good white collar fraudsters land on their feet, you just gotta look for the right ones to pick as examples. Martha Stewart went to prison for what could be viewed as a minor securities fraud incident, compared to what's happening today.
But Yes all of which you wrote has happened in the past, just ask Google. It is happening now, just wait until the hearings start next year and beyond. And it will happen again. And from what I read in your examples I saw key words like "charges", "investigations", "fraud", "fined", "violations" and a list of others that clearly indicate none of the what you call fleecing of fools is "Legal". Wether or not they got away with it is another story. I saw Teflon Don John Gotti beat many criminal cases in New York City when I was younger, it doesn't mean what he was doing was "legal". It doesn't mean fleecing fools is part of the business plan of the majority of individuals engaged in the financial industry.
Now the Hunt Brothers, these were individuals trying to enrich themselves. People want to ride along in the FOMO, in what they think are get rich quick ideas or so called investments. I'm reminded of what my old attorney used to say to me all the time when I was involved in litigation decades ago - "ignorance is not an excuse". The court does not care if you didn't know, it was your responsibility to know. The same way the market does not care if you didn't know, it was your responsibility to know, and to do your due diligence.
Don't be mad at the market if it takes your money, be mad at yourself for not understanding what your putting your money into. Which brings us back to how this conversation started. I blamed the education system. Brandmeister took it 10 levels better and explained the problem we're experiencing both on this forum and in society. People wanting simplified answer on a particular action to take in a situation where they are not an expert.
Edited by Harry213 Yesterday 10:56 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12005 Posts |
Quote: Ah okay, I see, I thought when you said in your experience I was going to hear how you had some actual experiences in the marke I worked on Wall Street for decades, including at Goldman Sachs where I met many of the people dragged in front of Congress in the prior post. Fleecing fools is part of the business plan at every major firm. It has been documented since the days when investment banks were referred to as bucket shops. Probably bad for business to put that in your marketing materials. There has never been a shortage of fools in the market
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6948 Posts |
I cannot dispute that those things are terrible. Indeed, I switched my voting pattern over failed promises to prosecute the obvious cases of fraud and regulatory corruption and negligence during the financial crisis. However, I would like to offer a counterpoint on the rights of fools. I happen to believe that with rights come responsibilities.
When I was working my first job in high tech, it was in the post-2000 tech bust. My peers were college educated engineers. It is safe to assume most of them were above average IQ and that most possessed math skills considerably above the median American. During the quarterly rounds of layoffs, quite a number of those people bemoaned the short sighted or suboptimal nature of the firings, forced vacation consumption, and painful pay cuts.
Due to the odd way that our employee stock purchase program set its discount prices, we had locked in a massive discount that produced a 2-4x return for a couple years. Essentially everyone took advantage of that opportunity for easy money. Many folks had been consistently investing 10% of their salary into the stock plan for 10, 20, 30 years. As a result of these two factors, our employees owned a massive slice of company stock.
In the eight years that I worked there, I only ever met one other employee who actually voted their shares. I asked a lot of people directly, especially people who expressed anxiety or complaints. The nearly universal response was scoffing that voting our shares was irrelevant. Some people pretended to thoughtfully take the feedback and feigned an interest in voting their shares, but I very much doubt they ever did.
I sympathize with the hens. But it is hard not to judge their distress when they could vote to close the henhouse door, and instead simply leave it standing open for the fox. The board votes were split on important issues, and the elections were sometimes close. For a collection of people who regarded themselves as much smarter than the average bear, I always harbored a disillusionment at their total apathy towards the only real control they could exert over the company from the top down.
I'm not a fox apologist, but I think some of their disdain for the hens is not entirely misplaced.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12005 Posts |
Quote: I'm not a fox apologist, but I think some of their disdain for the hens is not entirely misplaced. I'm not ignoring that fools are often greedy and lazy and looking to gain disproportionately from their gambling tendencies. That still doesn't mean that they deserve to be targets of fraud or outright theft. And then there's the collateral suffering that their spouses, children and others in their vicinity end up enduring as a result of their foolishness.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com
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Replies: 3,470 / Views: 123,210 |
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