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 Replies: 23 / Views: 4,996 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5155 Posts |
Thanks JCM, I knew there where people out there somewhat familiar with these coins. I must say the art and script is remarkable.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
Thanks.
This one ooks almost die type with the Mitchiner plate coin. No reauthorization stamp on the plate coin in M though. Nice piece.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts |
Anoob, sorry I haven't posted yet, show's over, you have no idea how much work go's in one of these, also we have club Wed. night too!!, I cook for 40 people, I have 14lbs chicken cooling, getting ready for white chix. chile ..MMMM  .. . Back to your fantastic coin, love the stamp, coin's awesome..  will get a smackdown coin soon... |
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
These are attributed frequently to various huns, but I do not think its hepthalite at all. If anything hunnish at all, I would say probably more Alchon or Nezak. Hepthalites did not create their own types, they always made Sassanid imitations.
Regarding the background of this area of the world, I would highly recommend "From Persepolis to the Punjab" published by the BM. Its the latest authoritative reference. Also, from the site you listed Tom has a link to a Ph.D dissertation I found helpful concerning peer review of various writings. A lot of this research is being published in Russian, and this paper reviews all Russian research as well.
Hunnish coinage is one of my specialties, and I am actually preparing a paper for a presentation I am giving at the Twin Cities Ancient Coin Club next month if anyone is close by and wishes to attend. I am covering Kidarite, Nezak, Alchon, and Hepthalite coinage, and will have about 50 different coins on display. I own the coin you show OP, but not sure if I am including it, as I am unsure which hun tribe it might be, or if its Turkish.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
Well I wish I was closer, to the twin cities. I would love to attend. I have a growing interest in these types of coins. I noticed when these coins are listed, they are listed as Turco-Hephthalite, White Huns. I would love if you could send me a transcript of your presentation if one is available. I am not sure that these coins are "Hephthalite" in the traditional sense either. What they are sold as and what they are often two very different things as I have discovered with alot of ancient coinage. (I think it adds to the intrigue). I find this particular coin interesting due to the multilingual legends and fields. Its something you don't see everyday. I would love any other information your could provided on the coins of these various cultures. I am all ears...ugh well eyes.
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
I will be talking to Tom and seeing if he wishes to have my paper linked on his website when I am done. I also promised him to photograph my collection, as I have many coins missing on his site, I just need to get it done.
As a starter, though, I would highly recommend that Ph.D dissertation he has there. Its great reading both on possible origins of chionites/hepthalites as well as their culture.
One of my other specialties is Sogdian coins, another esoteric and interesting field somewhat related to the hepthalites, but that is a different thread. :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3486 Posts |
Non plaudite. Modo pecuniam jacite.
Do not applaud. Just throw money.
I like that, and I could read it without help from a translator program. Is it actually to be found in a Roman text?
Four years of Latin and I still remember quite a bit.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
It is interesting that although the leaders of the Kushans (and possibly the Indo-Scythians and Indo-Parthians) and "White Huns" practised artificial cranial deformation, the Kushans were clearly orientated to India, a bit to the Greco-Roman worls too, in the gods shown in their motifs whilst the "White Huns" seem to prefer Zoroastrianism.
Edited by Masis
01/25/2013 12:47 pm
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
Kushans came from India? I have always read through my various readings they were the YuehChi from NW China, being forced out by the Xiongnu. I have probably 20 different sources stating the same thing if you would like the references.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
Yes the Kushan came from NW China. I think it is interesting to see how these different peoples seem to share many cultural practices. I think what is considered India is a bit gray, in many references and what the official boundaries are are often debated. I think what Masis is trying to say is that many of these central asian cultures mingled and mixed and shared many cultural similarities with the "Indus" and the Persians. If I am not mistaken the Hephthalites where also from the fringes of western China. The Kushan were not from India but did have influence in the POST Kushan era in the 3rd-4th centuries AD. They along with the Huns displaced the Shakas (Indo Scythians) and they then moved into India, They then dissolved and was absorbed by the Guptas.
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
I agree AncientNoob. Btw, all of the huns in central asia were the Xiongnu that displaced the Yuehchi initially, save for the hepthalites. The hepthalites may have been a heterogenous group like the alamani in Europe. My reasoning and support of that statement will be a big part of the paper I am writing.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
You really have me interested in this paper! When its completed please email me a copy I would love to read it. I really wish I could attend your lecture. I have been eye balling purchasing a rare hoard (or part of the hoard) of unpublished Hephthalite Obols found in Pakistan in 2004. They are being published with a concerted effort on the parts of Dr. Alex Fishman and W. Pieper.
I am curious medoraman- what is your take on the Chinese account of the White Huns. Being unlike the other Huns-and having "white bodies"? I have been reading about much older Europoid mummies found in western China, in much the same area. I wonder if they are related, I wonder how much such a find would rewrite the history of the contact between east and west?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Quote:
...Kushans were clearly orientated to India... Quote:
Kushans came from India?-medoraman No, the word "orientated" means that they were culturally influenced by and likely traded with India. Thank you for the offer of literature to learn from, however I have written in a previous post on my observations of the various coins of the Asiatic invaders of North-West India from the Indo-Scythians - Kushans. https://goccf.com/t/137754&whichpage=2 |
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
My apologies Masis. I agree mainly, though I would give the Kushans credit for creating the strong bimetallic coinage system, strong enough to be replicated by both the Kushanshahs and Kidarites who came after them. I believe the Kushans did take many visual cues from India, but also strongly influenced Indian coinage in their own right.
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
"I am curious medoraman- what is your take on the Chinese account of the White Huns. Being unlike the other Huns-and having "white bodies"? I have been reading about much older Europoid mummies found in western China, in much the same area. I wonder if they are related, I wonder how much such a find would rewrite the history of the contact between east and west?"
It was not just the Chinese, many writers both from China, Rome, and India differentiated between white and red huns. It was written that the red huns lived closer to India to the south, while the white huns lived to the north. This, along with some known cultural differences between the hepthalites and other hun tribes like the alchon and nezak, is why I believe the Chionites, (hepthalites), were not an identical group to other huns, and were most likely a mixed population.
It seems many ancient and 19th century writers mixed all of the huns together, and gave hepthalites, (for some reason the most popular name for central asian huns), all of the characteristics of any hunnic tribe.
The contact between east and west I believe has been rewritten. There were extensive contacts. Read Sogdian Traders where they detail large populations of Sogdians living and working in China, and even today by their names you can identify Persian and Sogdian ancentry in China. The sogdian letters greatly detail daily life of Sogdians living in China in ancient times.
No matter how some people try, humans have intermixed and coexisted much longer than most people believe.
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Replies: 23 / Views: 4,996 |
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Posted 01/22/2013 4:54 pm
