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1915 Shilling Variety?

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 Posted 05/30/2013  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
To be honest I don't see a difference in the width of the date. Anyway the following website shows both varieties I think the difference between the wide and narrow date is a way to tell between the 2nd 1 leaning right and the 2nd 1 leaning left variety?(fred levers reference book)
http://www.triton.vg/S15.html
While this variety at the moment has only been confirmed on coins with the 2nd 1 leaning right which eliminates the narrow and wide date variety as an influence on this variety? by the way this would have to confirm the use of a second master die for the 1915 shilling mintage because its a variety with the nine which isn't punched onto the single dies but only on the master dies? correct me if I am wrong don't want to go of believing one thing when its wrong.

p.s. I don't think it is a different spacing more misaligned got to this opinion by looking at the first two pictures of mine comparing the alignment of the 9's

I analysed the narrow and wide date shillings and both have the same alignment of the nine (normal) so it cant be just another indicator of these varieties and is in fact an entirely new variety. Here are the pictures proving this:
Narrow Date
1915-Shilling-Variety?
Wide Date
1915-Shilling-Variety?
Edited by oh my florin
05/30/2013 03:29 am
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 Posted 05/30/2013  06:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
Hey back again with news turns out that this is not isolated to the shilling series with an example of a 1915 threepence with the misaligned 9 confirmed at the moment (it is not as easy to tell as the shilling). This variety in general is relatively rare with only 3/7 shillings with the 2nd 1 leaning right displaying this variety so if the other variety of 1 leaning left included only 3/14 examples display the variety while the misaligned 9 on the 1915 threepence is quite rare with only 1/6 showing the variety while an example for the florin hasnt yet been sighted so if anyone has a 1915 florin that you think may be an example please post it. It would likely be the same rarity as the threepence if not rarer. Also just now found a 1915 penny which displays the variety although it isn't as dramatic as the other ones and therefore harder to pick out.
1915 threepence normal
1915-Shilling-Variety?
1915 threepence misaligned 9
1915-Shilling-Variety?
1915 penny normal
1915-Shilling-Variety?
1915 penny misaligned 9
1915-Shilling-Variety?
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 Posted 05/30/2013  07:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stevo1962 to your friends list
You are certainly keeping yourself busy OMF.I have some
1915 threepences which I should check on some time
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1006 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2013  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
haha maybe start writing a book at this pace?
Anyway I have done a bit of hard math to find the rarity of the varieties
1915 shilling
55% 2nd 1 leans left
26% 2nd 1 leans right and normal 9
19% 2nd 1 leans right and misaligned 9
1915 threepence
83% normal 9
17% misaligned 9
1915 penny
83% normal 9
17% misaligned 9
These percentages are of total mintage and are purely preliminary but should give an idea on rarity.
Edited by oh my florin
05/30/2013 07:39 am
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 Posted 05/30/2013  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
Hm, interesting that it appears on other denominations too.
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 Posted 05/30/2013  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
At the moment it is only confirmed on London mint issues and not Heaton mint issues which makes me think that it must be due to different procedures for example the London mint had two master dies or more while the Heaton mint only had one
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 Posted 05/31/2013  04:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
Maybe The Royal Mint was solely responsible for die production?
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 Posted 05/31/2013  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
I agree Mr T although what I found weird is that they produced two master dies just for their production run when one would have been enough for the run perhaps one was lost late in production or maybe after a few transfers from the master die to the working dies which were used at the London mint it was transferred to the heaton mint for their strikings and simply changed to include the H while a new Master die was produced in London? we will probably never know why
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 Posted 05/31/2013  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list
Yeah, hard to say. I'm sure looking at The Royal Mint's and the Heaton Mint's log-books would be a worthwhile exercise but that may not be so easy.
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 Posted 06/08/2013  05:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
There are a number of date varieties for the 1915 Penny. Scarcest is the wide date variety. Probably a case of individually dating the dies rather than a master for such small mintages.
Staff shortages in wartime may be one reason.
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 Posted 06/08/2013  06:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
good point nealeffendi but I don't think it is a case of individually dating the dies because if they were all subject to this then how come three quarters of the entire mintage has the exact same alignment with only one quarter showing the variety. Anyway an interesting point is that the mint would create a die with only the century and then take copies of that and then place the decade on the copy then take another copy and then put the last part of the date this is then the master die for that year with all of the working dies for that year will be taken of the one master die.

Sometimes they sink another master die with an slightly different or misaligned last digit e.g. 1931 drop, 1915 shilling 2nd 1 right or left and the 1946 florin large 6 but this is a case of a misaligned decade digit which is one step above the Master die leading to the conclusion of at the very least three different master dies for the year (1915 second 1 leaning right, 1915 second 1 leaning left and 1915 9 leaning right.) It is most probable that the Heaton Mint only had dies sent from the London Mint (no government mint would give the tools, mean or knowledge to produce dies to a private mint.)
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 Posted 06/08/2013  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
oh my florin
Are you certain that 3/4ths have exactly the same alignment?
I went through my 1915 pennies years ago and found at least 7 different date varieties. Admittedly the variations were mostly small and the coins VG so the differences could be illusory. Then again if each die was individually dated the craftsman would have been aiming for consistency (but failing on dies such as the wide date). Perhaps I will have to get around to taking high res images and comparing them on a computer to see if I'm wrong in my conclusions.
The 31 drop wasn't just a different hub but a different master die (look at the beads/denticles).
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 Posted 06/08/2013  9:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
Nealeffendi I think there were 4 different dies used that year according to my fred levers variety book they are London 1931, Indian 1931, Indian 1931 dropped and London 1931 dropped and I think you are referring to the difference between the London and Indian ones although there are 1931 London without the dropped ones and with the dropped one. Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

Anyway for the shillings I am quite sure it is around 81% (typed 3/4 my mistake it was a long night) been analysing quite a few of the coins here is my breakdown of the mintage of the 1915 shillings in to their varieties. By the way the first two varieties the 1915 second 1 left and right show absolutely no change in the alignment of the 9.
1915 2nd 1 left 55%
1915 2nd 1 right 26%
1915 2nd 1 right and misaligned 9 19%
And on the point of illusory it is noticeable that the 9 does change its alignment please look at my first two pictures in my first post and look particularly at the nines they speak for themselves and anyway I have used the exact same technique to determine the variety on the coins which show it as those that don't so I have been consistent.
Edited by oh my florin
06/08/2013 10:01 pm
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 Posted 06/09/2013  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
Oh My Florin
I was referring to the 1915 pennies in regards to the minor differences in dates. As for the 1915 shilling I have to rely on others as I'm a novice in regards to shilling varieties (plus I only have a small number and they are well below VG, so far below that it is hard to even read the date on a few).
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 Posted 06/09/2013  05:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oh my florin to your friends list
Oh sorry read it the wrong way I should really get some sleep
Edited by oh my florin
06/09/2013 06:00 am
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