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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1962 Posts |
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
These British George III counterstamps seem to be a great playing field for CC collectors.
Fake counterstamps on real coins, real counterstamps on fake coins, fake counterstamps on fake coins - do real counterstamps on real coins also exist?
I guess one could write a complete book with studies of CC just about these issues alone!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
WOW! $1,410 for a Sheffield! This is the current world record even though the buyer is in for a big surprise a year from now after the ANS book comes out <VVBG>.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
DOS Mundos these are treated in the new ANS CC8R book ... we can only wait in anticipation.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher - I am no way in your league with Spanish Reales but I am starting to get into War of Independence Issues. Anyway for the Chihuahua casts as I have one up on E-Bay now a real one - one thing I noticed or I currently believe for a good mint stamp what Max Keech of Mexico Coin Company suggest we call them now since they are part of the production process - as in double struck coins within these stamp areas in the interior along the sides you must have FLOW LINES when viewed with a typical 15X loop. Its true on some of these double stamped 1811-1813 casts the inside stamps are way too dirty with crud but with a loop in certain areas flow lines should be evident. I guess I believe this is one method to show a good regal stamp. Its been my experience that fake countermarks or the WOI mint stamps or provisional counterstamps simply don't have this kind of pressure when stamping if a counterfeit. Check it out unless you already have a suggestion or thought to this idea on determining counterfeit stamp or real stamp ... I do find this even more challenging than West Indies ... at least there JUST plate matching worked pretty good JUST with your Pridmore reference.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
WOW! $1,410 for a Sheffield! This is the current world record even though the buyer is in for a big surprise a year from now after the ANS book comes out. A far cry from this (same type per the PDF catalog): http://legacy.stacks.com/Lot/ItemDetail/185674Seems like this auction generally brought out the pedigree chasers... I'll say this - anyone spending $1000+ on a old metal disc who can't tell what that is... they got what they deserve. Nevertheless, the point is that NGC/Heritage should be better than that... Quote:
War of Independence Issues - within these stamp areas in the interior along the sides you must have FLOW LINES... my experience is that fake countermarks or the WOI mint stamps or provisional counterstamps simply don't have this kind of pressure when stamping if a counterfeit. For another thread... and WOI is NOT my specialty (I have started to acquire some, but only the regal styles)... but I think that's a sound theory. Of course, as with any stamped issue (like West Indies, as you mentioned)... the more you see, the more you recognize the diagnostics of a proper mark. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Actually my good friend William Anton (Author: Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies) use to deal a lot with both Christensen's (father & son). He had about 16-20 CC8R's and I did purchase them all. In 2008 I sold all of my COLLECTIONS through Stacks from 2008-2010 with my Cc8R's. I did keep two collections (Canadian Blacksmiths & Kleeberg CC2R,s). Anyway I sold these CC8R's privately since Stacks at the time would just group lot the bunch and Bob Gurney bought most on E-Bay. With this new GNL book I reloaded on them and have over 100 now - but yeah - Christensen came across them all the time - he had some real choice CC8R's that Stacks sold around 3-5? years ago that were his primary collection ... those went A LOT stronger than the recent Mike Ringo Stacks CC8R Baltimore C4 Sale group since they were GIII countermarked, generally more crude, better alloy combinations (i.e., silvering over copper or bronze) and in a higher net preservation grade.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
No these are all directly from Christensen? - all his non CC8R - not sure why it took so long to get to market? He died about 5-10 years earlier? Not sure - met him many times - lived in northern NJ - like me.
WOW - you reminded me of this DOS MUNDOS in a copper alloy!
EXTREMELY RARE!
I recently purchased one but NOW can't recall of a THIRD?
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
A couple more modern fakes: -- (2) versions of the same 1805 fake - one with "lustrous" surfaces, not processed to look somewhat worn; the other in an IGC slab, for whatever that's worth... http://www.ebay.com/itm/1805-8-Real...321293572619http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mexico-1805...370983201177-- an 1806 which uses the same reverse as the 1805 above http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mexico-1806...350973173008Note that this isn't to be Debbie Downer about everything on ebay. Much like the evening news, I'm only showing the junk... there's LOTS of good stuff on there and elsewhere. I will also note that I doubt that many (or even sometimes, any) of these sellers are offering these wittingly... Oftentimes they, like the buyers of such pieces, don't look carefully enough/don't know better. If it happens to a grading company, or to an auction house, it's DEFINITELY going to happen to some ebay peddlers. Knowledge is power; study the characteristics you see on these, compare to known genuine pieces, and go from there. Oh, and one more 1806, with rather ridiculous-looking (artificial) patination: http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Reales-18...261370124859Edited by realeswatcher
01/18/2014 05:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
realeswatcher a couple of the coins I handled from Berk's junk bin had similar coloration to the 1806 you show. It looked like someone had taken a shiny coin and fried it, or burned it in a fire. One of them was seriously underweight (11.5 g for a 4R) but the details were sharp and unworn.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The TPG Sheffield plate with the George III counterstamp is almost beyond belief. The grader must have had his eyes closed. I would love to own it and I would pay $200 for it. But the 1805 Mo TH (the last of 7) in the Heritage auction is a new type to me and more interesting than the rather common Santiago CCC. Unfortunately the 1805 is a Class 3 modern forgery but the expression on the King's face is priceless. One good thing has happened recently. Two Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit 8Rs (including one of John's coins) have been posted on ebay "properly described" - and they have SURVIVED being reported. In both cases, I made the case for an exemption because neither was currently considered to be a counterfeit under the law. I also indicated that they were well known counterfeit types that are over 170 years old (Class 1). I now seems that ebay will listen in cases where I can demonstrate the legality of the posed item. It is very early but it is certainly a hopeful sign that properly described Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits may eventually be accepted. This is only fair since many other CCC types are no longer pursued. This ability to claim an exemption does NOT apply to any recently made counterfeits or forgeries and does not apply to any US coins that are monetized. Those are actual counterfeits (monetized issues). These are the first two instances of a CCC being reported and actually surviving. There are quite a few CCCs that simply never get reported. Once again I would urge all members to report every single Modern counterfeit, Numismatic forgery or fraud. As they are spotted. Also remember NOT to click the link calling the item COUNTERFEIT because that refers to Gucci bags and similar copyright issues. PROHIBITED items - Improperly described currency is the place to report so that the report is not misdirected. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, the smirking 1805... it's a rather commonly appearing Chinese job:  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
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These are the first two instances of a CCC being reported and actually surviving. Someone seriously reported that? Effin moron - a gazillion precise numismatic fakes out of China, and someone's worried about a piece that's obvious and described as such? Quote:
There are quite a few CCCs that simply never get reported. I had presumed that they were doing (a least periodic) automated scanning for terms like "counterfeit", "replica" and similar... |
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Posted 01/16/2014 04:42 am
