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 Replies: 23 / Views: 3,380 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
I just found a very interesting on-line definition of Caveat Emptor which is clearly influenced by US consumer protection laws and if operative could be used against ebay in a class action suit because they sell so darned many coins. Here is the definition as found on http://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...+emptorQuote:
Caveat Emptor
[Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to all defects.
When a sale is subject to this warning the purchaser assumes the risk that the product might be either defective or unsuitable to his or her needs. This rule is not designed to shield sellers who engage in Fraud or bad faith dealing by making false or misleading representations about the quality or condition of a particular product. It merely summarizes the concept that a purchaser must examine, judge, and test a product considered for purchase himself or herself.
The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent.
Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such Warranty is the Implied Warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean; if a person buys skis, there is an implied warranty that they will be safe to use on the slopes.
A seller who is in the business of regularly selling a particular type of goods has still greater responsibilities in dealing with an average customer. A person purchasing antiques from an antique dealer, or jewelry from a jeweler, is justified in his or her reliance on the expertise of the seller.
If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply.
The auction also seems to fall under all of the prohibited parts of a caveat emptor defense enumerated above. |
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Valued Member
75 Posts |
Thanks, now I know never to buy coins from Northern Ohio Coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1064 Posts |
I think ebay should have a button which you have to click for coins and stuff like this. If it's fake, then they have to click a button which says it is fake. |
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Valued Member
75 Posts |
@augsburger Yes, like an acknowledgement that you understand that it is fake.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
I don't see much difference between selling this POS for $50, an 1870-cc $20 gold for $1.99, or a so-called "old bank roll" of Morgans for $3000 which are genuine, but which can't be returned under any circumstances. It is the buyer's responsibility to avoid being swindled by sellers flogging their merchandise. The buyer has to resist the tease, whether it is a perceived bargain or picker's discovery. The seller can argue that they made an honest mistake and should only be banned for repeated behavior. Overregulating sellers harms ebay's flea market character IMO. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
12/11/2014 08:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
thq The former rules for eBay-US actually followed the ANA rules - all items except for graded coins could be returned in the event of fraud. I have seen and supported many cases which overturned the "No returns" statement made by the seller in the auction. The No returns policy on an item that can not be seen before sale are unbalanced in favor of the seller. That is where Trust and Safety leveled the playing field. Under US law virtually everything sold is returnable under merchantability clauses in consumer protection laws. You say: Quote:Overregulating sellers harms ebay's flea market character IMO. Actually there were two divergent schools of thought on that issue at ebay. One saw the future of ebay as being built on long term returning customers - the other view looked at the immediate returns to the company. These are the two views that locked horns when the new management took over. As a supporter of the first view I believed that the supply of "new" customers for ebay was not actually endless. Like a flea market that gets a reputation for fraud suffers by word of mouth, we believed the coin section of ebay would devolve if not for enforcement of ANA rules. The alternate view looked at immediate profit margins and rates of return. The future was not considered. This of course will lead to an ebay built on coin fraud.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Is it just my inexperience, or does the portrait look completely bogus?  Moreover, stating "non-ferrous" without promising authenticity...puts me on alert. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
Bob, selling a fake 8R falls a long distance from ANA guidelines. How would ANA even have a clue without your book? I rarely use ebay for coin purchases other than junk 90%. And unless I'm dealing with Sedwick or Larry Briggs I don't buy $50 coins on the internet at all. For junk like this 8R there is no substitute for having the coin in-hand at a real coin shop. I use ebay a lot simply because it's a good international flea market. People don't forge Rookwood pottery, Vanderslice spoons and McCabe buckles like they forge Spanish colonial coins. There are still bargains and unique items to be had where authenticity isn't a concern. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
THQ I agree there are even bargains in the coin section - but you need to know your stuff.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
It's the naive sellers we're looking for, who don't know s. from shinola. If ebay chases them away for selling junk they haven't got a clue about, all the fun is gone. All that'll left are the sharks who are experts at bending whatever rules there are to tease naive buyers. Several months ago I bought an Elizabeth Barrett modernist Rookwood vase on ebay. The seller knew she had something, but she didn't know that this unique pot was photo'd Peck's guide. Absolutely no crazing, great modernism in Rookwood's last phase. The pot is one in a hundred IMO, and I passed on at least a hundred others. I need sellers like that. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
12/11/2014 3:27 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
Back to the coin under discussion -- I bought one of these off of ebay as a study piece a few years ago. I think I paid about $5. Mine has reeded edges. Since I knew from the portrait that it was a modern forgery I did not look too carefully at the reverse but now I realize that there's a typo on one of the banners -- it reads PLIS instead of PLUS.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
There are actually multiple molds for this type. It has been around so long that the mold masters have worn.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
For the record this coin is NOT Miao silver. Miao silver is a specific alloy that contains around 2% silver and looks very similar to silver minus the luminosity. This is a dime-a-dozen base metal fake with 0% silver. "Miao silver" has become a convenient way to sort of tip off people that it is not genuine, but not clearly enough so that some beginner will fall for it. Though to be completely honest, anyone who collects these coins and can't tell that it's fake by the really bad details pretty much deserves what they got for their $50.
Edited by Numismat
12/12/2014 03:37 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
If this item is NOT composed of maio silver, the seller is deliberately misrepresenting the item he has for sale.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
My contention all along was that the description was an intentionally deceptive (fraudulent) description from the get go.
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Replies: 23 / Views: 3,380 |
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Posted 12/11/2014 03:49 am
