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The Effect Of Cold Worked Metal On Toning.

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 Posted 05/08/2015  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list
I leaned something new today. Thank you very much for this.
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 Posted 05/09/2015  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jack jeckel to your friends list
Thanks for the insight.

I never knew of or even noticed that effect before.
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 Posted 05/09/2015  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list
Chute72,
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 Posted 05/11/2015  11:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
Interesting for sure.
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 Posted 05/11/2015  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
Are you talking about the pullaway chute? I didn't know it was an effect of the planchet.
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 Posted 05/11/2015  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aardspeed to your friends list
Some great reading on coin metals

Great stuff on "Dave Hamric"


http://periodictable.com/Elements/S...c/index.html


http://www.elementsales.com/intro.htm


Element Series "Coins"

Beginning in 2006, Dave Hamric (Metallium) [5] has been attempting to strike "coins" (technically tokens or medals, about the size of a US cent) of every possible chemical element.
To date he has struck tokens of the following elements.

Aluminum
Antimony
Barium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Beryllium
Bismuth
Boron (mixed with binder, sealed in resin cast)
Cadmium
Calcium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Carbon (mixed with binder, sealed in resin cast)
Cerium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Chromium
Cobalt
Copper
Dysprosium
Erbium
Europium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Gadolinium
Gallium
Gold
Hafnium
Holmium
Indium
Iron
Lanthanum (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Lead
Lutetium
Magnesium
Mercury (sealed in resin cast)
Molybdenum
Neodymium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Nickel
Niobium
Palladium
Phosphorus (mixed with binder, sealed in resin cast)
Platinum
Praseodymium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Rhodium
Ruthenium
Samarium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Scandium
Selenium
Silver
Strontium (reactive, sealed in glass capsule)
Sulfur
Tantalum
Tellurium (mixed with binder, sealed in resin cast)
Terbium
Thallium (extremely poisonous. Lead token clad on one side with thallium foil and sealed in resin.)
Thulium
Tin
Titanium
Uranium[6]
Vanadium
Ytterbium
Yttrium
Zinc
Zirconium


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_metals
Edited by aardspeed
05/11/2015 12:22 pm
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 Posted 05/11/2015  6:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
Cascade, Yes, I think that visual effect is sometimes called "pullaway."
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 Posted 05/12/2015  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
Chute, I learned about pullaway on jhonEcash in reference to toning. A guess I just assumed it was a strike artifact related to the dies. Thanks for the higher learning! Makes alot of sense on why NT is prevented there now that I think about it
Edited by Cascade
05/12/2015 07:52 am
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 Posted 05/13/2015  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
Nothing mentioned as to the temperatures. At what temperatures is this supposed to be noticable? Enclosed environment? Any difference in humidity for those effects?
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 Posted 05/13/2015  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
Warm or cool, humid or dry, the coin looks the same. No noticeable change if I close the door. But I rather suspect Carl, that's not what you meant. Can you rephrase the question?
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 Posted 05/13/2015  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
You know, given that pullaway is common but not universal, I wouldn't be surprised if there were external atmospheric prerequisites as well. Then again, it occurs to me that strike speed/pressure is likely causative as well.
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 Posted 05/13/2015  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
I think the question is whether extremes of temperature, humidity, etc. AT THE TIME OF STRIKING cause this effect? Or is it something to do with planchet preparation? Or do we not know...
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Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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 Posted 05/14/2015  07:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
Let me reiterate that what I present is my opinion and nothing more than conjecture. And The Royal Mint site has been down, so I am not able to benefit from their findings. However, I've found that I learn a good deal when others correct my misconceptions, and this will likely prove to be the case here.
If I understand correctly, the topic touches on what occurs during the minting process, what occurs afterward and how are they related?
My belief is that in the minting process, the planchet is forged into a new shape with greater work hardening around at the edges where it has to flow into and over the numbers and letters. And it is the work hardening that creates an area of alloy that is more resistant to oxidation than the softer areas of the coin.
Humidity may contribute to variations in the coining process, so it would be interesting to see if the coins made in the humid mints like New Orleans had a greater propensity to show the pullaway effect than a more arid mint like Carson City. However, neither the dies nor the planchet, unlike wooden materials, absorb much water. Conversely, the range of ambient temperatures would be held to the range of comfort for the workers, and this range is both narrow in consideration of possible metal temperatures, and not in the zone that would affect planchet hardness. If anything, highly elevated temperatures would cause the silver/copper alloy to soften or anneal.
My suspicions, like those of SD's are that the strike pressure and the strike speed may have an influence on the coin's crystal structure, and hence it's tendency to tone.
While the evidence is convincing that the areas rimward to the features show a resistance to toning, due precisely to the fact that forcing metal into a smaller passage requires greater pressure and results in higher metal flow velocities, I know little about a coin's ability to resist toning based on the strike speed and pressure, but I would not doubt there is a correlation.
Normally in science, experimentation is considered, but few of us want to work some metal and then observe it for 40 years. And any introduction of agents that act more quickly to tone the metal would act more aggressively to tone the metal, defeating our efforts to distinguish the narrow range of a coin's reactivity to oxidation.
For those that just want pictures let me share another example - only coincidently of the same date.

The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.

And to add spice to the stew of discussion, let me introduce the "equal and opposite effect" i.e. that of hardened coin metal on the die. This example is the 1889 VAM-11. Note that the erosion of the die has caused a rippling affect on the rimward side of the features.

The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.

The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.

The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.
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 Posted 05/14/2015  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
Hey chute, thought I'd throw in some pics I have at hand in my phone of a couple of mine with strong toning being resisted by the pullaway. This is a very interesting topic


The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.

The-Effect-Of-Cold-Worked-Metal-On-Toning.
Edited by Cascade
05/14/2015 09:11 am
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 Posted 05/14/2015  09:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list
Wow! Doesn't hurt to have pretty toning. Nice examples. Thanks.
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