NGC S-158 Variety Plus Page Includes A Fake

Earle42:

My opinion (note that word) from their past record is they did not abandon the idea, but only shelved it for awhile. Some businessmen want to milk the public for everything they can get. I predict one day there will be adverts such as:
"The new Compu-Grading system is totally impartial and 100% accurate since it eliminates the human-opinion-factor. You can never be perfectly sure your slabbed coins were graded impartially until they bear the new "Compu-Graded" labels. At only 30.00 a slab, you can now sleep peacefully knowing you have the REAL grade."

And just think! In 30 more years we can claim we need to re-slab everything yet again because we have upgraded the Compu-Grade system algorithms for more acuracy. More re-slabbing... and at only 30.00 each!

It's no wonder I never heard of them recently. You had me scared Earle. I learned a few non-proprietary things about that company from a deceased numismatist who helped develop the grading standards to feed into the computer programs.

I DID IT!!! That was just practice above. Thanks Earl!! Sometimes you can teach an old dog something.

Uh, this makes no sense. A coin is still fake even if a TPG cant figure it out. Maybe this s-158 fake is a bad example for the points you are trying to make because it being fake is blatantly obvious to copper collectors not least because of the Y but also the giant circle impression on the bust that doesn't exist anywhere in the decades upon decades of die variety studies published. Some of the others found are more deceptive than this one.

The mark is impact damage on ONE COIN (the model) it is NOT a DIE MARKER for a genuine example - only the fake!

There is a significant and obvious difference in appearance between something struck from a damaged die and something damaging a coin after it was struck.

Very interesting. Do you know of a specific case where NGC, PCGS, ANACS, or ICG has not "Made Good" on an authentication error? I watch/listen/read ("like a hawk") to discover any rumors about TPGS and have not heard of them "ducking" responsibility on an authentication error. Since grading is an educated opinion there is some "wiggle room" that may save them some money.

Sounds like that is the answer for nothing in print. I agree it should be . That probably means none of the TPGS print that guarantee either! It's an EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT "THING" that won't stand up if they don't wish to honor it.

I'll bet if you sent a letter/sent an email over there or asked to speak with one of the principals on the phone listed on the NGC website you would get a satisfactory answer. I think I'll try.

What scares me is that increasingly the counterfeit coin makers are going after common dates/mintmarks, because they know those coins are less likely to be scrutinized.

A guy walks into your shop with a ziploc bag full of 20-30 Morgans that he says he just inherited, and there's 4 1893-S in there and a few CC's...you're probably going to be more suspicious than if the dates are all 1884-O, 1921, etc.

Reason this comes to mind is last night surfing the Bay I found a very obviously fake 1884-O Morgan. I thought for a moment about why bother faking an 1884-O until I realized that if the quality was better it would be much easier to pass into the trade than a key or semi-key which is going to get much more intense scrutiny.

Same thing with copper -- guy comes in with a bag full of worn 1793 Chain cents...yeah right. Guy comes in with a bag full of worn 1798/1802/1803 Draped Bust cents..much more plausible.

Without the TPGs I'm not sure the coin dealers would have survived this long. With Internet sales becoming more and more of a dealer's revenue, collectors and investors alike don't have the option to touch, inspect, handle, and "check out" the inventory. As a dealer you're asking them to take your word that your 1893-S Morgan is the real deal. You're also competing against every dealer everywhere online, not just the shop down the road a few miles. In addition, you've got to back up what you sell with guarantees or else you'll get charged back by paypal/eBay or even sued if someone decides your coin is a fake. Easiest way to do this is through TPG's. Hopefully the TPG's do not start falling victim to more fakes, because if confidence erodes, it will be disastrous in the long run.

I remember the coin shops as a kid. Books full of coins in 2x2's, junk drawers, 10x face value silver trays, literal bags full of Wheat cents and Buffalo nickels...I could get lost in there for hours. Often did. I don't think I even saw my first slab until the late 90s, and they were mostly holding Morgans, colonials and gold. Unfortunately, dealer's gotta make a living, not just keep kids busy for a few hours, and the dealer's Internet/web presence is generating the traffic and the sales these days. Dealers gain several things from TPG's: purchasing power, confidence, profits, a guarantee to back up their merchandise, a (fairly) accurate indication of grade, easy inventory management, and the ability to turn over inventory quickly and keep fresh coins in the cases. I don't blame the dealers for carrying mostly slabs now; it would be terrible business sense not to. In the old days -- we did not have someone come in the door and say "I've got $200,000, what rare coins should I buy?" -- now these days you do get investors who come in who don't know a lick about coins, but will drop enough dough to keep you flush with cash for weeks as long as they feel comfortable and confident buying your coins. This is why I think if the TPG's can't keep at least some level of trust and faith in their product -- the knowledge that you are not buying a fake -- then times are going to get hard for everyone.