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 Replies: 109 / Views: 16,707 |
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Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts |
 This set of coins has been turned over to the RCMP in Windsor. The officer who took them said that he was totally unaware of the problem of these coins in Canada. When I showed him the RCNA Exhibit rules, he agreed with me that it appeared to be OK to have these as long as they were marked. This just shows that despite all of the work done by others to stop these, that there needs to be a lot more work done. I do however still believe that the contemporary pieces and the ones recognized in the catalogues, but not the modern Chinese knockoffs should still be allowed to be exhibited. A scan of the receipt is enclosed. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3690 Posts |
Curious as to what the RCMP will do with them. That is, what is the official procedure for dealing with surrendered items? Fact please, not opinions.
Do we have any former Members here? I know there was at least one a few years ago but I haven't seen him post in a long time.
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Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts |
Counterfeit coins have been around as long as coins themselves. Counterfeits in the early days were only made a few at a time in most cases in someones basement or garage from crude dies and low quality medals. They were then used as currency. The modern Chinese counterfeits on the other hand are only made to defraud collectors and have only become a real problem since the mint began selling high price precious medal collectable coins. As I have said before, some of these early counterfeits are highly sought after by collectors and are sold by major auction houses without any concern. Two examples of this are the Imperial Bank of Canada 1917 $100 note Charlton # CH-375-16-24c and the 1832 Nova Scotia half penny Catalogue # NS3A2. These are the types of things that I display because they have historical significance.  |
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Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts |
I was told by the RCMP officer who took them that they would be destroyed along with the drugs, guns and other illegal items that they have.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
Quote:
Counterfeit coins have been around as long as coins themselves. Counterfeits in the early days were only made a few at a time in most cases in someones basement or garage from crude dies and low quality medals. They were then used as currency. This practice still continues and is a real problem, For example all those fake 1 pound coins in the UK. It wasn't that long ago that people were Hung for "Coining" which is what a counterfeiter was called then. A counterfeiters objective isn't to create "Historical" coinage the objective was and still is to Defraud . |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4409 Posts |
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Do the right thing and turn over the coins to the police. On page 7, he stated that he turned them over to the RCMP and posted a receipt. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1049 Posts |
Glad to see you did the right thing there Colin, good on ya for that. I think this thread was a good education that created more awareness, also re-enforcing the passion that us collectors hold strongly too. I still hope to see the outcome regarding the rules of the clubs/associations that were involved.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts |
RCNA Code of Ethics 2.04 http://www.rcna.ca/bylaws.pdf"I agree not to sell, exhibit, produce, nor advertise counterfeits, copies, restrikes, or reproductions of any numismatic items, even if bearing such stampings, including any reproductions of current circulating currency, non circulating legal tender ("NCLT"), and ancient to modern demonetized currency, or any reproductions of numismatic-related exonumia (i.e. tokens, medals/medallions, scrip), notaphily (i.e. paper/plastic currency, banknotes, cheques, credit cards), or scripophily (i.e. stocks and bond certificates). Excepted from the above are government and other official restrikes/re-issues, and items historically recognized as numismatic collectibles, and accepted by the numismatic community as such, and printed items that are either less than 75 percent or greater than 150 percent in size of actual pieces.........(more)."
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1049 Posts |
Ty W/F for the above link, so am I understanding correctly that the rules of the ONA and RCNA currently will not be revised as they are within all the legal parameters as such? This is all new to me so I am wanting to be very clear in my mind of what I take in, info junkie wise. TYIA. Jon. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1049 Posts |
I would have to dis-agree with the RCMP officer who took the coins, his/her stance stating they felt it would be ok to have them. To me upon surrendering them it was not said that they were trying to be sold, hence the reply of being ok to have them, after the fact of reading the rules set forth by the RCNA. That knowledge clearly defies the rules set in place by the RCNA which in turn I believe are deemed so, according to current laws set about, regarding counterfeit coins from production to ownership and all areas in between. Except for the ones mentioned that are allowed within the coin collecting community and have laws protecting the rights of such. If in fact it was explained that this set was offered for sale and then the RCMP officer read the rules and arrived at that conclusion. It's a case of either the bar's set to low for entry to the RCMP, or perhaps it's nickels and dimes to them and not worth their while and are leaving it up to the collecting community to self police.............written laws. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree not to sell, exhibit, produce, nor advertise counterfeits, copies, restrikes, or reproductions of any numismatic items, even if bearing such stampings, including any reproductions of current circulating currency, non circulating legal tender ("NCLT"), and ancient to modern demonetized currency, or any reproductions of numismatic-related exonumia (i.e. tokens, medals/medallions, scrip), notaphily (i.e. paper/plastic currency, banknotes, cheques, credit cards), or scripophily (i.e. stocks and bond certificates). Excepted from the above are government and other official restrikes/re-issues, and items historically recognized as numismatic collectibles, and accepted by the numismatic community as such, and printed items that are either less than 75 percent or greater than 150 percent in size of actual pieces, or are clearly identified as "souvenir cards" and are printed on a different media than the originals; and, excepted from the above are government agencies, crown corporations, or employees thereof, and knowledgeable experts in counterfeits or counterfeiting, Edited by M_d_in_guy
05/11/2016 11:10 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
The last sentence would imply that he would be allowed to sell advertise reproduce and exhibit because by virtue of him winning awards from the association for his display of counterfeits it could be easily argued that he is a knowledgeable expert in counterfeits.
What a confusing mess.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts |
M_D_N guy it is a mess. Firstly, you have the written law, it's pretty cut and dry, but it seems that enforcement end doesn't know the written law or don't care. An example of complacency in respect to integrity of our currency, I go to the bank from time to time to get older coinage, of course never find anything but those darned nickel dollars, almost every time, mixed in are Trade dollars that the person that's brought them in has been given a dollar for, I tell the banks every time, those are not Canadian legal tender, they say yeah we know, but they just go to the bank of Canada. Secondly you have those rules from the association that says he can do what he's done with immunity. It's absolute lunacy. I now after re reading nickel guys post how frustrating it is. My head hurts now as well, but there has to be some consensus on what's ok and what's not, I know in my mind what is and what's not, but weather there can be consensus is a whole other story. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
OK. One more time. The Law is black and white. It is peoples interpretation which muddies the water. gaz you are wrong on what remains legal tender. NO BOOK can tell you what is legal tender except a copy of the Criminal Code of Canada. The RCNA rules of display are wrong as currently written. I am sure this will be corrected. The ONA rules on counterfeits as they are written are TOTALLY WRONG. Read the law. The most important line states the onus of proof is on the individual that they educate to possess/import counterfeits. Not the crown. That means you openly TEACH others to identify the counterfeits through published works, seminars and the dissemination of information. I carry (and have earned) a letter from the RCMP stating that I do just that. I also have a letter from the RCNA stating my qualifications in regards to counterfeit Canadian coins coming from China and that I do indeed educate on them. I have had to produce them numerous times. Those are the prerequisites the RCNA dictates in the policy. BLACK AND WHITE! The excuse that the counterfeits were purchased to educate yourself will not fulfill the requirements needed by law. It drives me nuts that very few people realize the ramifications of the fakes in a collection. Here is one example. A coin collector dies. In the collection is a handful of counterfeit 50 cent pieces from China he/she purchased to educate themselves. Family liquidates entire collection. The cycle begins again as now someone else owns the fakes. Perhaps a neophyte collector. Perhaps an unscrupulous seller? Either way someone has potential to be defrauded! I have seen the results of both scenario's. TOO #$%^^^%% often. All because individuals did not understand the big picture. As for stamping them? I have seen a 1921 5 cents made in 1968/9 in Israel that was struck with the word copy. It was tumbled in a ceramic polisher until G6. Low and behold the worthless fake sold for 4K. I had to tell the owner it was fake! The law works when people look at the big picture and use their heads for something other than hat racks. IT AFFECTS MORE THAN JUST THE INDIVIDUAL! |
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
Wow.... I go fishing for a weekend and take some time away from the internet and this thread explodes... I do understand the concern here, and contrary to what some might think, there are many people who are concerned with the issues that have been brought to light. I see no benefit of adding fuel to all the righteous indignation; and frankly it annoys me and likely others (i.e., long term members and/or executive of the RCNA) when opinions are made about what an association like the RCNA should or shouldn't do and yet those same opinionated people are so short sighted and frankly, cheap, not to support the RCNA. I cannot see any way there can be a positive outcome on this thread. The RCNA and ONA have already responded, and the person who listed the items has also responded. I will remove the personal attacks and I will only reopen this thread when either the president of the RCNA, ONA or Mr. Marshall have relevant news or results to post, pertaining to this matter. Those of you who resorted to personal attacks, I hope you enjoyed your "free spin". Next time, there will be consequences. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
Important information for those concerned with modern reproductions of Royal Canadian Mint NCLT. Mike Marshall highlighted a lot of these new counterfeits at the recent Coin Expo, and has produced a CD-ROM containing all the images of these counterfeits, including 2016 coins already being counterfeited. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/162066365213Educating yourself is much easier with legal images of these problematic coins, rather than (illegally) purchasing them for "education purposes". "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Posted 05/11/2016 12:44 pm
