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 Replies: 23 / Views: 4,836 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
You think that buying this as part of a bulk purchase for perhaps 10% over spot is too reckless? The answer I'd give is that if the counterfeits mixed in have any silver content at all, then it's at least not a total loss, although I don't know how you resell such to go to the smelter if you really can't determine just what the fineness is exactly. If their composition is merely a convincing combination of nonprecious metals, then they're trash, except for somebody's black cabinet as an educational prop. I can only speak for myself on this - I really don't want to buy counterfeits at all unless they're contemporary and therefore historical in their own right, or if they're just so bad and cheap that they're good for a laugh. Colligo ergo sum
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Not all of the Madonna thaler counterfeits were modern; there are known semi-contemporary counterfeits in real silver, pewter, and at least one known example (last I checked) in gilt white metal, almost all were probably made in the 19th c. for collector demand and use in jewelry.
The design was so popular that Ludwig II of Bavaria briefly resurrected it in the mid 1860s for use on the reverse of the Bavarian Vereinsthaler, including circulating and prooflike specimen strikes; however, these coins are 8mm smaller and nearly 10g lighter in weight than the originals, providing some insight into how much that same Bavarian thaler had been devalued in less than 100 years.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
IMHO, I don't see anything wrong with this coin so I don't think it is a fake. This is quite a common coin, not expensive so it is not possible as a numismatic forgery.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Henry,
Respectfully, you are incorrect on both of your points.
1. Just because a coin is not extremely valuable doesn't exclude it from forgers' "to fake" lists. Plenty of low value silver forgeries out there. Take the common US Morgan for example... in low grade most are worth little above melt and yet there are a TON of forgeries, some better some worse. Selling base metal at silver prices IS a very lucrative business.
2. I have posted 4 examples of genuine thalers and laid out what was wrong in the OP's coin. If you still cannot see it, then take a closer look. Focus on the letters (X, A, E, &). Also look at the dentils, they are all wrong. Lastly, this was not struck. As paralyse point out, the fact that coin is much too underweight, as it should weigh closer to 28g, only reinforces that it is a cast.
I'm sure if arkie did an SG test he would get something far below 10.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
I am also in the camp that is not sure on this...
There are certainly some concerning elements, but based off photos exclusively, not 100% sure on this...
If indeed not genuine, I would lean towards it being semi-contemporary, not base metal nor modern.
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Valued Member
186 Posts |
Personally I have some doubts about the item.Doesn't quite look like a Chinese copy (I've seen worse)but its appearance is a bit suspicious.Even if a genuine coin won't command too much money, this doesn't exclude the possibility of a modern forgery.I think there are some different variants for this 1765 type but i'll leave the comparison with other thalers away for the moment.Whilst the diameter may vary between 40-42mm, the 1 gram underweight(as stated before by cableguy815) is definitely a big no-no for a 18 century thaler minted in great numbers!A picture of the edge might be interesting!,In the end, being unable to have the coin in hand means that's quite hard to make an 100% judgement!
Edited by paulCT
05/05/2018 02:58 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
In the condition as posted by OP if genuine this is a USD $175-$200 coin minimum; the Chinese are busy knocking out fakes of common date US coins that are worth $2 to $10 at most, so yes, they do copy cheap coins. When dealing with photos, there are no absolutes, only suspicions, and this coin is highly suspicious. Can I say with 100% certainty that this is not an authentic issue? No. But I can put the probability of its being a fake at around 90% with confidence. After spending a good bit of time with a particular coin series, you begin to see what the Germans call the "Gestalt", i.e. the perception of something as more than just the sum of its parts. It is this sense that allows experienced collectors of a certain type of coin to help differentiate the fakes from the genuine coins, even if, at a cursory glance, all of the "parts" seem to be mostly correct; this is just putting into more formal terms the sense that "it just doesn't look right." OP's coin just doesn't look right. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
This is actually an excellent example to keep for reference and eye training. Before getting to the visual cues, the fact that the coin is under-weight by about a gram and a half solidifies that it is not genuine. Coins of this type were filed down to the correct weight. If anything, one without adjustment marks might be overweight, not under.
I've also never seen one of this type without any signs of adjustment marks. However, I have seen some where the marks were light enough that heavy toning and a not-so-great photo made it look like they were completely absent. That does not appear to apply to this coin though.
Edited by Numismat
05/04/2018 6:39 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Quote:
...the fact that the coin is under-weight by about a gram and a half solidifies that it is not genuine. It seems to me that the the next question is how, with a coin of this size, was the weight brought even that close to what it should be? Is it debased silver? Testing via xray fluorescence (XRF) might be very revealing in this case, as what really needs to be determined is whether it's a very recent forgery (most likely from Russia or China in that case) or something concocted way back when, which wouldn't be quite so bad. Colligo ergo sum
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
Lucky I'm quite certain this is a modern forgery of the Chinese variety. Also, owning many and having seen a ton of these early Germanic thalers I'm also quite sure it's a cast copy. As to your question about how a somewhat close weight was obtained I'd say via thickness. Because this coin is in the approximate diameter range I would bet that it is noticeably thicker than an original. I would perform an SG test on this first before I'd even consider XRF. As I mentioned before, an SG test will definitively confirm this is a non silver alloy.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
541 Posts |
Can never be sure from viewing this scan. Sure would be interesting to measure, weigh and do a specific gravity test on this coin. What does the edge look like?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2637 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
There are raised letters present at the edge but they are mostly torn. The whole coin is significantly worn so it accounts the "one-gram low" for the coin. Filings on a coins or adjustment marks were done only when necessary. It can't be an evidence to say a coin without filings seen is fake when most other coins have adjustment marks. This is a simple logic. I still vote the coin is genuine. To be assured more thoroughly, correct silver content will be more conclusive.
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Valued Member
United States
414 Posts |
I can't make anything meaningful from the edge pictures, but whatever is there looks like blobs.
Henry - I agree with you about the adjustment marks and although very common in early thalers, and this issue in particular, there are those with little or no adjustment marks.
That said, I think you are completely inaccurate about the weight discrepancy being caused by wear. Have you ever seen a coin be off by more than 1g because of wear? If this coin graded P01, where it was a uniform smooth blank, maybe then I'd understand a loss of 1g. In this current grade, which I'd say is F-VF, you will never have such a material weight discrepancy.
Besides, it's not just the weight, it's all the other factors also. The weight is just the final nail. I know you collect reales so I'm not sure what exposure you have to German coinage but unlike reales, the Germans thalers are a great illustration of German engineering. They are perfect each time, the letters are crisp and the details never mushy; everything that this coin is NOT!
Arkie - are you able to perform an SG test so we can lay this to rest.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
It is a pretty high grade coin with little actual wear. This is why the gram and a half difference is such a significant factor. Such a difference due to wear on a coin this size would leave it worn mostly flat, like a G-VG low grade coin.
Edited by Numismat
05/05/2018 12:49 am
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Posted 05/03/2018 11:32 pm
