Fraud On Ebay

The Carrot:

ShadowCreator, you've done a service by researching so thoroughly, and posting the accurate results here. furniture, it does you great credit that you're willing to come here and publicly defend yourself, especially when you seem willing to engage in give-and-take even if your "opponent" does not.

The Stick:

ShadowCreator, you stepped over the line by demanding compensation and linking it to Feedback. If ebay chooses to sanction you for that, well, you're getting what you deserve.

furniture, for what it's worth I agree with ShadowCreator about your approach. You make a mountain out of a molehill by mentioning anecdotes where one TPG has called a coin cleaned and another, not - that happens far too rarely as a percentage of such possibilities to be statistically significant. The fact that you're buying coins which have been TPG-rated as cleaned and then representing them as uncleaned is simply dishonest. Even if you disagree with the TPG's opinion. They're not adding to their profit by calling a coin cleaned - you're adding to yours by claiming otherwise. Your photos are of insufficient quality to allow a buyer to make the determination - in fact, the only photos of the links provided by ShadowCreator which are of any quality at all, the 1818/& SLQ, are ripped from Heritage, and not yours at all. The 1807 Bust is directly deceptive - it's plainly cleaned in Heritage's photos, and not in yours.

Furthermore, your (admittedly) excellent selling record tends to impart a sense of authority to your offerings and opinions. I believe you're smart enough and experienced enough to know this, and you're playing on it, knowing that many of your buyers aren't either smart or experienced about coins.

If you were to mention in your auctions that NCS or ANACS had considered these coins cleaned, and that you disagree with their opinion, then I'd back you 100% otherwise.

Moderation: To reiterate Tights24's statement, this thread will be allowed to stay but only under the strictest of controls. I, personally, don't see it staying open for as long as another 6 hours. I don't believe it can be kept civil.

I only bought two other coins from him, one slabbed, and most likely would have realized that this one was cleaned upon seeing it in person (it was blatant from the heritage photos), but again, I'm mostly angered at the dishonesty here. I'll remain civil, but in all seriousness, I do feel that I have a right to be compensated for the time wasted; and I am not talking about hundreds of dollars either. A small amount for a few hours put into this whole ordeal seems more than reasonable. This cannot be 'extortion' because the pretense isn't to 'make money' or 'damage the seller untruthfully'. There is a real scam going on here and all I was trying to do was recover damages. I do know that something might happen with ebay though, and I will pursue this as far as I can to look for a fair outcome. But I again doubt that the seller has done anything because this would attract more attention to his dishonest selling practices.

Bryan, I did investigate the seller on ebay, but I'll have to admit that he did a good job of fooling me. Probably because he makes comparitively little profit compared to most dishonest sellers. The catch is that it adds up. I've taken the liberty of looking at more cleaned coins to see if I can learn to detect them better. Blatantly cleaned coins are a giveaway, but some are not so easy to detect. I am glad that I have not been seriously burned here, BUT I have seen him trying to seriously burn other buyers (and a few that have gotten hit pretty hard). An example would be the 1918/7-S. Consciously trying to defraud buyers on a multi-thosuand dollar coin would likely bring a stiff punishment if it ever ended up in court. And it's pretty much proven that the seller was attempting to do so.

Roberta3303, occasionally 'cleaned' is subjective and you can get a bargain buying a light 'problem' coin (especially if valuable) and trying to get it certified. But most of the time it will come back in a bodybag, and many of your coins you were selling were blatantly cleaned in the heritage photos. Again, I didn't look at your recent raw sales because I only bought two coins from you awhile ago, one slab, and one more recently. About your example of the guy who sent in many coins, a lot of coin grades were more conservative 20 years ago, so that would explain that. But you have been cracking out at least ten I've seen, most likely DOZENS of NCS coins on heritage and trying to advertise them as non-problem coins. Your pictures are decent but also deceitful, clearly some tricks of the light are in play. I'm glad I did not buy anything very valuable from you, as I never would have without better pictures.

Your policies may sound honest but this is because you know that most people will be fooled by your tactics, even those who are careful. After all, even I got fooled once. But I've really learned my lesson. Again, trying to recover lost time is not 'extortion', especially because I was going to report you all the while anyway. If you had been more sociable and respectful after the first email in which I merely addressed my concern, I probably would have just thought you were selling one coin dishonestly and we could have parted ways amicably, so that's a lesson learned on your end.

Your rude responses made me suspicious enough to check further (though I really should have in the first place), and sure enough I found out the scope of what you were/are doing. You can't seriously think that your code of business is honest, especially since you lied about buying off heritage first.

I will also again admit that I was a little gung ho when I first bought, so that was my fault. The newest coin I was taking a gamble with and look at it in person first. You're not legally obligated to pay me for my wasted time, but ethically, it's really the right thing to do. And at the very least, you should refund all my coins plus shipping charges, since you were describing your listings in a dishonest manner.

I apologize to everyone else for flying off the handle though, I merely wish people could find better ways to make a few bucks here and there.

Yes, they do. If you want to sell a coin on Teletrade it has to be slabbed for authentication purposes, and if it's been cleaned, it's been cleaned. Honest sellers and collectors generally know where to send their coins for slabbing. I don't know how you can possibly know everyone's thoughts about getting their coins graded.




Quite simply, no they don't.




You know nothing about this forum. There are hundreds of posts on the problems with TPGs and I'd say the vast majority of members here at least recognizes the problems associated with them.




Actually, you bought a coin that was professionally judged cleaned and took it out of the slab because you didn't want people to see that it had been cleaned. Even if you disagreed with the assessment, there was nothing stopping you from keeping the coin in the slab and stating that you didn't agree with the graders. Also, you could have submitted the coin to another TPG (PCGS or NGC) to see if you could find anyone to agree with your 'opinion.'

The rest of your post is such a ridiculous example of a person throwing stones from the easy chair in his glass house that I will leave it alone. If that was, in fact, your last post on this forum, your level of participation has been noted and I'm sure your ebay name will continue to figure prominently in any 'problem sellers' posts from here on in. Thanks for revealing your true self.

Heh. Right on both counts.

It is not possible to tell with 100% certainty whether or not a coin has been cleaned from photographs, regardless of their quality. Anyone who claims otherwise suffers from quote #2 above. I guarantee you that I can hide cleaning, or imply cleaning which isn't there, in an unretouched photograph which all would acknowledge is of professional quality. Check out some of my work on this forum.

On a case-by-case basis, I will trust the opinion of someone who makes their living seeing the distinction, someone who has handled thousands of cleaned coins, over even my own opinion since I've only handled hundreds or a couple thousand of cleaned coins.

Know what? This problem could have been handled much better directly through ebay and its system, which doesn't allow compensation for wasted time, btw. All I see is a lot of dirty laundry, which could be easily cleaned up by direct communication between the buyer and seller - and I'm speaking with experience here, as I've bought a large number of items, including coins, on ebay. Last week I purchased a coin when, when I had the chance to examine it in front of me, turned out to be different than described (the photo of the coin provided little or no information). I communicated with the seller and returned it for a full refund. End of THAT problem.

ebay doesn't tolerate dishonest sellers - they've lost a significant amount of $ through lawsuits against them for hosting dishonest sellers - and they will take care of problems like this and should have been informed of the problem FIRST. On the other hand, I appreciate the tip on a clearly dishonest practice and will watch for others ... but I may not post what I find in this forum, lol.

If grading an opinion then why did you both to send those coins to PCGS? You said that you've sent cleaned coins before to PCGS and they've slabbed. How come you didn't send these if to you they're not cleaned? Your doing this for profit so why not maximize it?




No, people will often send in a cleaned coin into to prove it's authentic. That way it's easier to sell let's say a Standing Liberty quarter for $8,000 rather than for $10,000 raw. Now, would you have bought that coin if it was raw? Most likely not, but since it was graded by ANACS, your guaranteed that it's authentic and therefor you can try to sell it for more.




You just joined here. You know nothing about this forum. Most people here don't like slabs and everyone tries to buy the coin and not the holder. This is not that other forum by a top TPG where people are obsessed about getting every coin slabbed and complain about a coin being undergraded but are happy when their own coin gets overgraded.




If your not trying to con someone then why don't you say that it was in a cleaned/damaged holder but that you based on your experience believe it's not cleaned? Better yet, why don't you send them out yourself or send them for a grade review then?




Once again, look around this forum and you will see that it's not this forum.




Now, if what your doing isn't right then why are you taking such a defensive approach? You know what your doing isn't moral but you don't care.




Don't post about this matter but try to explain to us as to why this is ok. Defend your practices, don't take the easy way out.

Not to inflame things further, but I think I'm accurate in noting that:
1. Many collectors here have observed a serious breach of trust between seller-buyer in this situation, one which incidentally was initiated by the seller. If the goods were not as described, guess who bears the brunt of responsibility here for that loss of trust?

2. From what I see, the seller essentially considers this an acceptable business practice, refuses to accept their role in the dispute, considers criticism groundless, and maintains "no harm with intent" was done. Then they start with ad hominem comments. Really.

Perhaps this goes without saying, but if your business depends on a lack of transparency, ie details kept from the buyer to your advantage, then don't be surprised when that causes problems. The basis of any good business transaction is trust, and I'm saddened how that's become the exception vs. the rule.

This is exactly the sort of thing that needs publicity on CCF, to serve as a case study and as general awareness to collectors. Problems with fraud--and I mean here with intent--are rife in coin collecting, and the more people are aware of the nuances of transactional ethics, the less this stuff will be tolerated—and sellers will be forced to change their ways, or perish.

So, if business like this doesn't hang like a foul reek in the air, then it's time to look in the mirror and consider your own ways--and ultimate responsibility. Good business means promoting trust--not leaving it to the off chance that someone else will cover your failings.

Finally--I've found that many collectors here are models of transactional transparency and good ethics.