Fraud On Ebay

ShadowCreator did go way to far by asking for more $$$ or be reported. The seller may be a jerk but ShadowCreator is just as bad for doing what he did. Not that I am agreeing with the seller but Blackmail is just as unethical isn't it?

Also, just wondering if 'furniture' is the seller?

And no, I actually didn't mind that you made profit, it's that you're being dishonest.

looks like furniture is using the same spell checker!

I'm not EXTORTING you <<**>> . I don't CARE what your feedback is. All I was trying to do was recover my lost time and money because you are the one selling garbage fraudulently.

And I don't even understand why this guy is doing this, he's making like $100 a week tops, couldn't he at least make big money if he was going to be a scammer?

** Personal attacks will not be tolerated ** ~ Admin

I don't know how I missed this thread and it have 3 pages already but I did, now for my personal opinion. Shadow, you did great investigative work, in my opinion it was just a little to late, it should have been done before the bidding and would have been the factors on whether you bid or not, doing so after you had already won and asking for money for your time is just as unethical as selling a problem coin as a no problem coin.

For the Seller, grading is subjective everyone on any coin forum will agree, but selling a problem coin as a no problem coin is not subjective, if you know a coin had problems and you sell it as a no problem coin hoping to sell it to someone that doesn't know much about coins to catch the problems even if you offer 100% refunds is still unethical. It is like if you can catch the problems I have no problem for sending you your money back because I know it has problems but if you buy it as problem free and you don't catch it (because you are a newbie) then that is fine as well, why not note the problems and sell it for what the coin actually is, a problem coin that way you look as ethical as anyone could.

I have no problems with someone selling problem coins as long as they sell them as a coin with problems, but taking coins that you know have problems and selling them as problem free is just shady and is a big problem in this hobby which has turned off many collectors because they got burnt so badly by shady sellers (even though it is their place to know what they are buying before they buy, I think the seller has a responsibility to describe the item correctly so they can then make their own judgment on description and pictures). I have sent coins to be graded that I was sure wasn't a problem coin come back body bagged by PCGS and others as well, and I usually just go by my own instinct and put them in a album and leave a note stating what the graders thought, that way if I ever did sell the coin I could atleast state what the graders thought at the time they saw the coin in hand even though I disagree with their evaluation of the coin. Most of the times the problems are so faint they can't be seen in photos, especially small,dark ones that you see on ebay most of the time so what allot of people go by is the sellers reputation (feedback with coins) and their description

The Carrot:

ShadowCreator, you've done a service by researching so thoroughly, and posting the accurate results here. furniture, it does you great credit that you're willing to come here and publicly defend yourself, especially when you seem willing to engage in give-and-take even if your "opponent" does not.

The Stick:

ShadowCreator, you stepped over the line by demanding compensation and linking it to Feedback. If ebay chooses to sanction you for that, well, you're getting what you deserve.

furniture, for what it's worth I agree with ShadowCreator about your approach. You make a mountain out of a molehill by mentioning anecdotes where one TPG has called a coin cleaned and another, not - that happens far too rarely as a percentage of such possibilities to be statistically significant. The fact that you're buying coins which have been TPG-rated as cleaned and then representing them as uncleaned is simply dishonest. Even if you disagree with the TPG's opinion. They're not adding to their profit by calling a coin cleaned - you're adding to yours by claiming otherwise. Your photos are of insufficient quality to allow a buyer to make the determination - in fact, the only photos of the links provided by ShadowCreator which are of any quality at all, the 1818/& SLQ, are ripped from Heritage, and not yours at all. The 1807 Bust is directly deceptive - it's plainly cleaned in Heritage's photos, and not in yours.

Furthermore, your (admittedly) excellent selling record tends to impart a sense of authority to your offerings and opinions. I believe you're smart enough and experienced enough to know this, and you're playing on it, knowing that many of your buyers aren't either smart or experienced about coins.

If you were to mention in your auctions that NCS or ANACS had considered these coins cleaned, and that you disagree with their opinion, then I'd back you 100% otherwise.

Moderation: To reiterate Tights24's statement, this thread will be allowed to stay but only under the strictest of controls. I, personally, don't see it staying open for as long as another 6 hours. I don't believe it can be kept civil.

I only bought two other coins from him, one slabbed, and most likely would have realized that this one was cleaned upon seeing it in person (it was blatant from the heritage photos), but again, I'm mostly angered at the dishonesty here. I'll remain civil, but in all seriousness, I do feel that I have a right to be compensated for the time wasted; and I am not talking about hundreds of dollars either. A small amount for a few hours put into this whole ordeal seems more than reasonable. This cannot be 'extortion' because the pretense isn't to 'make money' or 'damage the seller untruthfully'. There is a real scam going on here and all I was trying to do was recover damages. I do know that something might happen with ebay though, and I will pursue this as far as I can to look for a fair outcome. But I again doubt that the seller has done anything because this would attract more attention to his dishonest selling practices.

Bryan, I did investigate the seller on ebay, but I'll have to admit that he did a good job of fooling me. Probably because he makes comparitively little profit compared to most dishonest sellers. The catch is that it adds up. I've taken the liberty of looking at more cleaned coins to see if I can learn to detect them better. Blatantly cleaned coins are a giveaway, but some are not so easy to detect. I am glad that I have not been seriously burned here, BUT I have seen him trying to seriously burn other buyers (and a few that have gotten hit pretty hard). An example would be the 1918/7-S. Consciously trying to defraud buyers on a multi-thosuand dollar coin would likely bring a stiff punishment if it ever ended up in court. And it's pretty much proven that the seller was attempting to do so.

Roberta3303, occasionally 'cleaned' is subjective and you can get a bargain buying a light 'problem' coin (especially if valuable) and trying to get it certified. But most of the time it will come back in a bodybag, and many of your coins you were selling were blatantly cleaned in the heritage photos. Again, I didn't look at your recent raw sales because I only bought two coins from you awhile ago, one slab, and one more recently. About your example of the guy who sent in many coins, a lot of coin grades were more conservative 20 years ago, so that would explain that. But you have been cracking out at least ten I've seen, most likely DOZENS of NCS coins on heritage and trying to advertise them as non-problem coins. Your pictures are decent but also deceitful, clearly some tricks of the light are in play. I'm glad I did not buy anything very valuable from you, as I never would have without better pictures.

Your policies may sound honest but this is because you know that most people will be fooled by your tactics, even those who are careful. After all, even I got fooled once. But I've really learned my lesson. Again, trying to recover lost time is not 'extortion', especially because I was going to report you all the while anyway. If you had been more sociable and respectful after the first email in which I merely addressed my concern, I probably would have just thought you were selling one coin dishonestly and we could have parted ways amicably, so that's a lesson learned on your end.

Your rude responses made me suspicious enough to check further (though I really should have in the first place), and sure enough I found out the scope of what you were/are doing. You can't seriously think that your code of business is honest, especially since you lied about buying off heritage first.

I will also again admit that I was a little gung ho when I first bought, so that was my fault. The newest coin I was taking a gamble with and look at it in person first. You're not legally obligated to pay me for my wasted time, but ethically, it's really the right thing to do. And at the very least, you should refund all my coins plus shipping charges, since you were describing your listings in a dishonest manner.

I apologize to everyone else for flying off the handle though, I merely wish people could find better ways to make a few bucks here and there.

Yes, they do. If you want to sell a coin on Teletrade it has to be slabbed for authentication purposes, and if it's been cleaned, it's been cleaned. Honest sellers and collectors generally know where to send their coins for slabbing. I don't know how you can possibly know everyone's thoughts about getting their coins graded.




Quite simply, no they don't.




You know nothing about this forum. There are hundreds of posts on the problems with TPGs and I'd say the vast majority of members here at least recognizes the problems associated with them.




Actually, you bought a coin that was professionally judged cleaned and took it out of the slab because you didn't want people to see that it had been cleaned. Even if you disagreed with the assessment, there was nothing stopping you from keeping the coin in the slab and stating that you didn't agree with the graders. Also, you could have submitted the coin to another TPG (PCGS or NGC) to see if you could find anyone to agree with your 'opinion.'

The rest of your post is such a ridiculous example of a person throwing stones from the easy chair in his glass house that I will leave it alone. If that was, in fact, your last post on this forum, your level of participation has been noted and I'm sure your ebay name will continue to figure prominently in any 'problem sellers' posts from here on in. Thanks for revealing your true self.