Fraud On Ebay - Page 4 - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 54 / Views: 7,655	Page: of 4

tights24 Pillar of the Community United States 2254 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 4:27 pm This ends here. Furniture, it is YOU that are missing the point. If you have the desire to stick around here a bit instead of trying to convince us that you are right, you will see this. We have many very knowledgeable folks here, and many folks who submit coins to the top TPG's. We do not believe they are always accurate with their grades. Some are also very surprised when coins come back in bodybags or marked as cleaned when we can't see it. But we DO NOT try to sell coins that have been labeled as such as a problem free item. The people that are doing the grading certainly know more than most about the subject, and whether it was put to a grinding stone and is easily visible, or it was improperly dipped at some point is something that they specialize in. To not realize this and think you are doing people a service is completely ludicrous. You are welcome to stay on this forum and learn first hand that we are not like other forums. We take pride in educating young numismatists and helping each other grow our skills. What you are doing is "wrong" for lack of a better word, and no matter how you twist your words, you will not change the opinion here. Report this Post to the Staff
SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 4:32 pm Quote: no one sends in a coin if they think it will come back as cleaned so all those anacs cleaned slabs out there represent a difference of opinion between the submitter and the grader. Quote: people like this spend every waking minute of their lives in denial arguing and weaving themselves into a tapestry of self serving advice Heh. Right on both counts. It is not possible to tell with 100% certainty whether or not a coin has been cleaned from photographs, regardless of their quality. Anyone who claims otherwise suffers from quote #2 above. I guarantee you that I can hide cleaning, or imply cleaning which isn't there, in an unretouched photograph which all would acknowledge is of professional quality. Check out some of my work on this forum. On a case-by-case basis, I will trust the opinion of someone who makes their living seeing the distinction, someone who has handled thousands of cleaned coins, over even my own opinion since I've only handled hundreds or a couple thousand of cleaned coins. Report this Post to the Staff
trdhrdr007 Pillar of the Community United States 2335 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 5:42 pm The idea of cracking a coin out of a slab in hopes it will regrade higher is probably something everyone who collects thinks about. That's a far cry from taking a coin that has been designated cleaned out of a slab & reselling it as problem free. I'm not impressed with asking for more than a refund either, especially when the request is associated with what could be considered a threat. Report this Post to the Staff
pls Rest in Peace United States 1729 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 6:19 pm Know what? This problem could have been handled much better directly through ebay and its system, which doesn't allow compensation for wasted time, btw. All I see is a lot of dirty laundry, which could be easily cleaned up by direct communication between the buyer and seller - and I'm speaking with experience here, as I've bought a large number of items, including coins, on ebay. Last week I purchased a coin when, when I had the chance to examine it in front of me, turned out to be different than described (the photo of the coin provided little or no information). I communicated with the seller and returned it for a full refund. End of THAT problem. ebay doesn't tolerate dishonest sellers - they've lost a significant amount of $ through lawsuits against them for hosting dishonest sellers - and they will take care of problems like this and should have been informed of the problem FIRST. On the other hand, I appreciate the tip on a clearly dishonest practice and will watch for others ... but I may not post what I find in this forum, lol. Report this Post to the Staff
Bryan1315 Bedrock of the Community United States 14454 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 6:28 pm Quote: no one sends in a coin if they think it will come back as cleaned so all those anacs cleaned slabs out there represent a difference of opinion between the submitter and the grader I know others who have sent coins we all knew was cleaned to ANACS because they do not body bag the coin like some other TPGs do just to prove they are authentic so saying every coin in a ANACS problem slab is in question by the owner of being a problem coin, its not only cleaned coins either, there is ex jewelery coins, bent coins, or any other problem that you think could stop one of the other TPG's from slabbing your coin that you know has a problem but want to prove its authentic. The 1918/7 SLQ is a fine example you can clearly see it has problems in the photos that would stop it from being slabbed by lets say PCGS but just it being authentic makes it a multi thousand dollar coin (even with the problem label) if it weren't slabbed may sell for less that one thousand dollars raw. If you would have said no one sends in a problem coin to PCGS or NGC I would probably agree with you, but that just doesn't stand true for ANACS because they slab problem coins and people will send them problem coins just because they know there is no way it would ever be slabbed at the others Report this Post to the Staff
Amazon99 Pillar of the Community United States 2443 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 7:09 pm Quote: grading is opinion only a coin considered cleaned by someone does not make it a cleaned coin I have submitted former cleaned anacs coin to pcgs and have had them certified I have also seen au58 coins come back as ms 64's and ms65 coins come back as au58's you are confusing experience with and knowledge of coins with dishonesty If grading an opinion then why did you both to send those coins to PCGS? You said that you've sent cleaned coins before to PCGS and they've slabbed. How come you didn't send these if to you they're not cleaned? Your doing this for profit so why not maximize it? Quote: you all still miss my point no one sends in a coin if they think it will come back as cleaned so all those anacs cleaned slabs out there represent a difference of opinion between the submitter and the grader... No, people will often send in a cleaned coin into to prove it's authentic. That way it's easier to sell let's say a Standing Liberty quarter for $8,000 rather than for $10,000 raw. Now, would you have bought that coin if it was raw? Most likely not, but since it was graded by ANACS, your guaranteed that it's authentic and therefor you can try to sell it for more. Quote: I always hear people griping about how their coins were not properly graded by the TPG but here at the forum you seem to think that a TPG assigned grade is the law.. You just joined here. You know nothing about this forum. Most people here don't like slabs and everyone tries to buy the coin and not the holder. This is not that other forum by a top TPG where people are obsessed about getting every coin slabbed and complain about a coin being undergraded but are happy when their own coin gets overgraded. Quote: I put my money where my mouth is and buy a coin marked cleaned because I know it was not cleaned.. I sell all my coins at no reserve and any coin I list I stand by my description I am not trying to conn anyone... If your not trying to con someone then why don't you say that it was in a cleaned/damaged holder but that you based on your experience believe it's not cleaned? Better yet, why don't you send them out yourself or send them for a grade review then? Quote: I never liked chat rooms or forums like this because I see that most of the members are either professional complainers, wanna be psychiatrist or they are touting their own agenda..their way is right and everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about and that's it period Once again, look around this forum and you will see that it's not this forum. Quote: ...well that's not the way the world is ..and that's why people like this spend every waking minute of their lives in denial arguing and weaving themselves into a tapestry of self serving advice, opinionated and bias views and are always ready to lurch out from the depths of cyberspace like a venomous snake at anyone who dare to question their views or differ with their opinions. Now, if what your doing isn't right then why are you taking such a defensive approach? You know what your doing isn't moral but you don't care. Quote: I will not post again on this matter and will let ebay and the authorities settle the dispute..Thanks Don't post about this matter but try to explain to us as to why this is ok. Defend your practices, don't take the easy way out. Report this Post to the Staff
furniture New Member United States 5 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 7:47 pm Halfabustisbetter..You are just what I meant you have nothing to do all day.. and you get up on your cyber soap box and spew nonsense and mumbo-jumbo to anyone who is desperate enough to listen.. you fancy yourself a hotshot coin dealer and authority on all manner of protocol and ethics..I would assume that you must have issues that cause this behavior and attitude problem .. possibly a domineering wife or an unhappy employment situation where you are stifled and humiliated even more or maybe both so your defense and therapy is to assert your bias jaded opinions on any subject to anyone at anytime... I am sure you are in other chat-rooms all day long dosing out your nonsense to any unfortunate sole sad enough to listen to it.. If I posted here 1000 times you would reply to each one with the same fervor spouting out nonsense and quotations and telling the world how great you are and how you would handle the problem and how honest and ethical you are and you are a font of numismatic knowledge..You are similar to most not all of the people I have dealt with who run for a condo association seat desperate for authority and the feeling of importance they crave this above all.. I truly feel sorry for you and.. that goes for you to Amazon..also if I buy a coin that is marked cleaned because I know it is not improperly cleaned and I shell out good money for it and I post large accurate unenhanced pictures of.. I am not going to list as cleaned coin because in my opinion, (which has no standing in this one sided bias forum)the coin has not been cleaned--you people cannot grasp this and refuse to recognize my opinion on a coin...Again this is the reason I don't use chatrooms they are full with professional ax grinders who are bitter and disgruntled and frustrated authors because they can't stand on their own 2 feet and buy a coin without having someone hold their hand and tell them what a good deal they are getting they hide behind a double standard code of ethics and enjoy criticizing and complaining about every one and every thing this behavior I seem to find only in chatrooms because they all have the same type of customer and clientele and the rumor mongers who lurk within them know their audience well and give them what they come for! Edited by furniture 07/04/2008 8:24 pm Report this Post to the Staff
KurtS Pillar of the Community United States 5318 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 8:04 pm Not to inflame things further, but I think I'm accurate in noting that: 1. Many collectors here have observed a serious breach of trust between seller-buyer in this situation, one which incidentally was initiated by the seller. If the goods were not as described, guess who bears the brunt of responsibility here for that loss of trust? 2. From what I see, the seller essentially considers this an acceptable business practice, refuses to accept their role in the dispute, considers criticism groundless, and maintains "no harm with intent" was done. Then they start with ad hominem comments. Really. Perhaps this goes without saying, but if your business depends on a lack of transparency, ie details kept from the buyer to your advantage, then don't be surprised when that causes problems. The basis of any good business transaction is trust, and I'm saddened how that's become the exception vs. the rule. This is exactly the sort of thing that needs publicity on CCF, to serve as a case study and as general awareness to collectors. Problems with fraud--and I mean here with intent--are rife in coin collecting, and the more people are aware of the nuances of transactional ethics, the less this stuff will be tolerated—and sellers will be forced to change their ways, or perish. So, if business like this doesn't hang like a foul reek in the air, then it's time to look in the mirror and consider your own ways--and ultimate responsibility. Good business means promoting trust--not leaving it to the off chance that someone else will cover your failings. Finally--I've found that many collectors here are models of transactional transparency and good ethics. Edited by KurtS 07/04/2008 8:41 pm Report this Post to the Staff
SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 07/04/2008 8:50 pm Enough. Report this Post to the Staff
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