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Moderator
 United States
97925 Posts |
Quote:
Never. Would your answer constitute a double negative, thus making it a positive answer? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1667 Posts |
the answer to your question is in here, https://doubleddie.com/58222.htmlAnd I'd say it would have been helpful had your title and the question been worded differently. Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 09:05 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
549 Posts |
LOL Dearborn. Doubled die coins are not struck doubled die when the die itself is not doubled.
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Moderator
United States
97925 Posts |
Quote:
LOL Dearborn. Doubled die coins are not struck doubled die when the die itself is not doubled. I know the difference. I was referring to the context of the question itself. Putting a double negative in a question automatically makes it a positive. such as, If you were asked: Is it not true that you didn't take a breath yesterday? in this case you would have to answer yes, but take away the word 'NOT' - you would have to answer no. But, if you answered No to the question the way it was asked, then you would be essentially saying that "Yes, I didn't take a breath yesterday" Edited by Dearborn
12/10/2021 10:37 am
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Valued Member
 United States
163 Posts |
Thank you all for participating I will try and address all. Ok so by mirror what I'm trying to describe is if you were to take a picture of a coin such as I'm describing and the well known example superimposed them you would find they align in every way so in answer to your question no the devices are not a reverse image. Apologies for the wording of the title but as you can see the question in its self is difficult to describe. Ok so who is to say the die isn't doubled because this is the ultimate question. Let's look at it this way couldn't the die be doubled and also be a light strike from adjustment, couldn't it also be a doubled die while being greedy packed therefore showing a faint second device? So the other answer is not "never" making this positively a difficult question
Edited by Spencerj72
12/10/2021 09:55 am
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Moderator
United States
97925 Posts |
Ok, lets take the famous 1955 Doubled die Lincoln Cent. The doubling on that coin was caused by it being engraved onto the die twice and slightly rotated. Now using that die in the normal manner, the result would be a doubled die, BUT what if, during the strike of that coin, the press bounced and rotated slightly again. Then I would think you would end up with a doubled, doubled die coin. (with the second doubling being much weaker.) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1667 Posts |
there's 8 classes of doubled dies, 9 if you include hybrid doubled dies which involve two classes of doubled dies on the same die. There isn't any real doubled die outside of these classes of doubled dies, because then it's not a doubled die. it DDD or MD, or other forms of Mechanical Doubling or even a second strike. the reason I say the question could be worded better is because people have spent lifetimes researching doubled dies, how they happen, what is a doubled die, what each type looks like..... and what is machine caused during striking, and how to tell the class of doubling it is. If you can't nail down what class it is, then it's likely NOT a doubled die. Who is to say the die isn't doubled? the researchers that have spent their lives researching doubled dies, that's who. yes, you can have a doubled die WITH a light strike from a power surge, or adjustment strikes. Yes you can have a doubled die with MD or DDD also present. You can have a doubled die Greaser. That would be a doubled die with another type of issue also. Still it's either a doubled die where the doubling is on the die itself, that falls into one or more of the classes of doubling, or it's just not a doubled die. Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 11:55 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1667 Posts |
the 1955 doubled die is Class I doubling, or Rotated Die Doubling. now IF something like a cam shaft broke or the die came loose and rotated a bit, there might be enough shift to bounce the die, that would be a 1955 Doubled die, Class 1, WITH Machine Doubling, and might appear as 4 strikes even, if it got that far off when the die got loose and rattled. it would not be a new doubled die though. the "poor mans 1955 doubled die" is Die Deterioration Doubling. it looks nothing like the 1955 doubled die, class 1. Technically you could have the class 1 and the DDD present on the same coin in a very late die state of the 1955 doubled die before the die was retired. Edited by Big-Kingdom
12/10/2021 11:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
549 Posts |
Sorry Dearborn, I thought you were being humorous.
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Valued Member
United States
163 Posts |
I like where your going with that Dearborn. Big Kingdom man that was a mouth full but appreciated, just to clarify we are talking about a coin mirroring another exactly. Saying that let's run with what you were saying assuming it was a DDO that lets say stutter step now no one is arguing if it has Mechanical Doubling but the question I would have would that stutter step be enough to say devalue a true 1958 P Lincoln, honestly I can't say it would. The question then becomes where does it no longer have value as a DDO, so back to Dearborn. I think a DDO is just that, let me put it this way I have 3 coins in front of me the first is a true 1958 P showing all devices as a true DDO, beside it are 2 1958 P that are identical in every way but one and that is the devices are at different heights with the lesser being only a half the other my question is when does it fail to meet the standards of a DDO in this senecio? |
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Valued Member
United States
163 Posts |
I only ask because this is the predicament I find myself facing. Lol
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Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts |
Quote:
there's 8 classes of doubled dies, 9 if you include hybrid doubled dies which involve two classes of doubled dies on the same die. BK- You took the words right out of my mouth prior to me reading this entire thread, and seeing your comment, about doubled dies. I was going to mention the same thing you did but you explained and worded it much better than I could have. Thanks!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts |
Quote:
the question I would have would that stutter step be enough to say devalue a true 1958 P Lincoln In response to your question, MS coins are graded "as struck" as long as there is not a major loss of eye appeal to the coin due to, say, light MD. Even MS70 coins are graded "as struck" with the same criteria. Depending on the denomination, year, mint, etc.... some coins were struck better than others but can still achieve an MS grade as long as they are UN-circulated. There are numerous criteria involved in the grading process. However, always keep in mind that TPG's are human and being so, makes grading a subjective art. |
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Valued Member
United States
270 Posts |
What I've noticed is a true doubled die the altitude of both strikes is the same. On MD strikes the altitude is not the same. Check it out.  |
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Valued Member
United States
163 Posts |
Ok I can get on board with that especially the TPG being human as I have learned. I brought these questions out in order to make an informed decision on sending in a couple coins showing this same issue. As I understood it the error or variety needed to be seen using a 10x magnification but then remembered having a Kennedy half minted with a die that was quintupled, a variety I would have never seen without more than 10x and after thinking about it I Came to the same conclusion on a few DDO I'm aware of existing |
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Replies: 21 / Views: 2,185 |
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Posted 12/10/2021 09:00 am
