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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
That's an interesting one, and it does strike me as ambiguous. I almost see notching in some areas, but other places appear more like MD.  |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1666 Posts |
WD-
I think the bouncing effect definitely plays a role in some mis-identifications.
Both of the scenarios you mentioned would be true. If you bounce a ball, at the end of its inertia you hear only a constant rattle of very short and fast paced bounces. If the die becomes a little loose, the same can happen to the top die, gravity would cause it to bounce back just slightly, and the pressure from the die would slam it right back down each time.
Some supporting evidence I've found is that stainless steel coin series have a much lower frequency of doubling, but mint condition coins sometimes have what appears to be flattened features. It's easily conceivable that a 10 or 12 pound metal die, coming down with a pneumatic pressure of a couple thousand PSI can cause doubled features on a softer material such as silver, bronze or copper, but only flatten the features on a harder steel coin.
It would be interesting to see this theory really tested. =)
Edited by Numismat
01/24/2009 02:07 am
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Valued Member
United States
83 Posts |
Quote:
There is indeed very slight and rounded doubling in the 1847-1934 legends. Perhaps by foreign coin doubled die standards that is 'very light'. Apply that amount of spread to a Lincoln Cent date and it would be a significant doubled die. There are several classes of doubled dies. Pivoted hub doubling will result in a spread that is heavier in some areas and lighter to non-existent in other areas. The doubling may be major or may be minor -- but if the doubling is in the die (i.e. every coin minted with the die has the same doubled image) it is a doubled die and most often has the tell-tale notches. MD and even double struck coins will not exhibit the same kind of notching that is present on a true doubled die. If you want to see a brain-teaser, check out this post I did on Coppercoins... http://www.coppercoins.com/forum/vi...c.php?t=3263When I first found this 2007 Sac dollar, I thought it was major MD. I sent it in for examination to a major Error Coin expert and a Die Variety pro. One said it was double struck (with a weak 2nd strike) and the other said a major case of MD. I've had two other opinions by the pros base on the photos. One says double struck and the other says MD. So far, the verdict is 2 to 2. I've been too chicken to send it in to PCGS or NGC for attribution -- for fear they will side with the "MD" side of the argument. In any case, it is a neat coin. Of note... notice that there are no notches on any of the letters. The incused elements (such as the triangle inside the "A" letters) do show something that resembles notching -- but this is due to the fact that an incused element is a raised element on the die. Edited by russellhome
01/24/2009 11:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
That's great that you found another example. That means a single working die produced this, so it's definitely not a double strike which is a freak error. I guess I always tend to associate double strike and double die as being one and the same. A pivoted hub or the like is still a single strike of the die, so to me it all falls under Mechanical Doubling. As for the Sac dollar, it's only confusing to me until I see the virtually total separation in the designer's initials. I hope you send that one in to be slabbed, should be a whopper of a coin if it does come back as a double strike. =) With our 2 RM coins, I can see a case either way. You've convinced me to pony up and send this one in to a grading service. Which one do you think is better when it comes to errors? I don't have much experience having coins professionally graded. Edited by Numismat
01/25/2009 02:39 am
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Valued Member
United States
83 Posts |
Quote:
A pivoted hub or the like is still a single strike of the die, so to me it all falls under mechanical doubling Mechanical Doubling (MD) and doubled dies occur during two completely different processes. A doubled die, regardless of the classification, is doubling that is created during the die making process. It happens when a hub - having a positive image of the design (like the finished coin) - is pressed (hubbed) into a blank die on a press. It often takes several 'hubbings' do get the negative image of the design fully pressed into the softened die. If the die and hub do not remain perfectly aligned between hubbings, a doubled negative image of the design elements can occur on the die. Thus, every coin struck with the doubled die will have the same doubled image. Mechanical Doubling (aka Strike Doubling) happens when coins are actually being struck. It is caused when a loose or chattering die moves or shifts or hops during the strike process - shaving off, smearing, or flattening raised design elements immediately after they are stuck onto the coin. The look of the doubling often varies from one strike to the next -- all depending on where the loose die happens to be when the initial strike occurs. As far as which grading service to use... I'm not sure this coin is valuable enough to justify the cost. ANACS is probably the least costly option among the respectable grading companies. You could send the coin to Ken Potter (CONECA) for attribution/authentication for less $$. He is the only attributor I know of that does foreign die varieties. Edited by russellhome
01/25/2009 1:27 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
What an interesting read!  And seeing that second 2 RM with those markers sorta proves that doubling was on the die. The last pic showing extreme double-hubbing and MD is a fascinating comparison too. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
The main thing I got from all this... the gray area is bigger than the black and white when it comes to DD/MD. =O
Edited by Numismat
01/26/2009 8:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
 ...it's certainly a confusing topic when in relation to many foreign coins I have. Interesting to note here how the distinction between MD/DD is much more clear cut for US coins I know about such as Indian head and Lincoln cents. There are some very specific ways to distinguish between the two--it's that black/white. I don't know whether that's a case of having better familiarity with these coins, or different production processes? Certainly the WWII-era German coins produced some crazy doubled dies by comparison.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
I guess the US minting process is very tightly observed and quality controlled.
Like Russell mentioned, what may be considered minor doubling on a foreign coin is dramatic doubling on a US coin. Interesting topic guys! =)
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Valued Member
United States
301 Posts |
There are coins that exhibit MD and doubled dies they could coexist on a coin so can DDD and doubled dies etc . I have a coin with Die Deterioration Doubling along with class 6 and class 2 distended hub and distorted hub with DDD and a obverse and reverse doubled die You could also have a hybrid with two separate different doubled dies on a coin ,and also have a obverse and reverse doubled die. I think your coin exhibits Machine Doubling as well as a doubled die. I have found some foreign coins like that. Jazzcoins Joe Edited by Jazzcoins
02/05/2009 09:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Hey Joe, that only goes to show how opinion-based the whole thing is... almost like grading. =)
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Valued Member
United States
301 Posts |
Wow that is interesting I have one with a doubled forehead a doubled chin a doubled tie doubled shirt. I have to agree with the experts this one is a very hard call. I have been trying to figure out if it;s a true doubled die DDO I come across some coins that are very hard to diagnose . I have three coins that I have right now that I;m trying to come up with a conclusion of what kind of doubling it is . I have a Washington quarter 84 which i;m pretty sure it;s a double die a class 6 very thick letters and the letters are curvy but there is also indications of DDD on it. The problem I find with class 6 and DDD they can be very confusing since I think they are somewhat close in nature The quarter exhibits separation lines on the letters that;s why I think it's a class 6 Doubled die with DDDI would like if you could furnish me with some information on the Jefferson nickel please I want to do more research on it since I think I have a DDO like you I would say by looking at the coin ,If you look st the S in states there appears to be an indication of notching and the images are raised and that is not MD by any chance/ I do see sign of DDD on the letters I would say there is a form of DDD. I have already ruled out MD In my opinion I would say it;s possible a DDO With light DDD on the coin. Now this is just mt opinion Jazzcoins Joe Jazzcoins Joe Edited by Jazzcoins
02/06/2009 10:12 am
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Pillar of the Community
Poland
3201 Posts |
What a surprise, my 1939-D 2 RM also has doubling on "Reich 1939" and "mark", though it's well.. minimal.
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Valued Member
United States
83 Posts |
It seems that the Munich (D) mint ran a pretty sloppy shop during the Nazi era. I've found a few minor doubled dies from other Nazi era mints - but the vast majority of my DD finds are from Munich. Most are minor to moderate doubled dies (like the one in the original post in this thread) - but I have a couple that are darn impressive. As far as that 2000 P nickel -- I don't really have any more info to offer. As I said - it was reported in Billy Crawford's Die Variety News (Issue #10, Nov/Dec 2007). His photos are a little better than mine, but both his example and mine are the same die state and condition. Billy is taking a time-out from DVN while he finishes a new Lincoln Cent DV book, but for when it resumes, here is the website... http://www.dvnmagazine.com/You may want to email Billy about your example. Perhaps he will want to see it. |
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Valued Member
United States
301 Posts |
Thank you so very much for that info I will contact Billy Crawford about my coin I;m kind of excited about this possible doubled die find
jazzcoins joe
Edited by Jazzcoins
02/07/2009 5:10 pm
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Replies: 16 / Views: 6,489 |
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Posted 01/24/2009 02:04 am
