Rotated Dies

Conder, I am still contemplating the "pattern of fine scratches an scraped metal withing the reeds of the edge that are created when the coin is pushed up out of the collar".

Why would this be an indicator of die configuration? Since ejection releases the coin from the collar, it may be considered that these scratches and scrapes are caused more likely by strike than ejection 'eh? I could see it going either way, but I still don't comprehend the rationale of scratches between the reeds on a coin as indicative of anything at all. If these scratches are between the reeds on the coin, this would mean that the collar is flawed on the teeth themselves. Possibly broken teeth tips? More likely an effect of swagging though whether or not the effect is uniform around the coin.

As far as checking the coin edge for bevel due to the conical shape of the collar, I would think that if three UNC coins were stacked with obverses facing left, and this stack placed between the jaws of a digital caliper, the bevel may be seen. I would forget the readout on the caliper, but hold the set up to the light, and notice the light showing through between the stacked coin edges. I haven't tried this, as I have no coins or calipers, but I would think that it should would work.

You have the correct understanding about the scratches in the edge of the coin. The collars are not perfectly smooth. On a microscopic level the collar has imperfections and raised defects. When the coin is struck the metal of the coin is forced around these microscopic defects. Then when the coin is pushed up out of the collar a scratch is created on the edge of the coin from the level of that defect down in the direction of the lower die. The closer the defect is the upper die side of the collar the longer the scratch is there will also be fewer scratches on the upper die side of the coin and more on the lower die side. Something else you can look for are little "rolls" of metal around the edge of the reed valleys where the edge meets the rim. This metal is the metal scraped from the edge of the coin by the defects in the collar. All of these features are more naturally pronounced when the collars are new and will become less prevalent as the collar ages or as the coin wears.



That would work too, but the taper of the collar is probably not more than about a thousandth of an inch over the thickness of the collar which is several times the thickness of the coin. It may be vary difficult to square your measuring device the coin and the taper of the coin over the thickness of the coin would be very small and probably hard to measure. Not saying it can't be done, but I don't have that kind of equipment.



Good thought, that might work.



Ejection does not "release" the coin from the collar, it FORCES the coin up and out of the collar. The forsce of the strike compresses the planchet tightly against the collar. You probably could not force the coin out of the collar just by hand. So the coin metal is wrapped around any tiny irregularity in the walls of the collar. Whn the coin is forced out those irregularities don't move. Something has to give and that something is the softer metal of the coin.

Maybe elaborate and sophisticated equipment could be limited to a level, a plate of glass, a machinist's square and an UNC coin.

Level the plate of glass......stand the square on the glass.....stand the coin on edge, (obverse flush to the blade of the square)......remove the square carefully and slowly by sliding the square away from the coin. Gravity and coin height/weight may be sufficient to tell the tale. If the coin does not at least fall, it may lean. Now set up with the coin reverse to the square blade. If I am correct, the coin should fall or lean to the same side as in the previous set up.

Once again, I have none of the ingredients necessary to complete this experiment. (Strictly a thought).

I would think that the jaws of the micrometer would have to employ pinpoint tips or the jaws of the caliper would need to be razor sharp in order to measure only the extreme edges of the coin. I personally like the method of using back light between the edges of a stack of coins better. (Less chance of error).




Plausible, the flats are on the dies themselves....the setscrews are threaded though the sides of the cups (die stakes) that the dies sat it. As I do believe that the dies were removed and turned in at the end of each day (for security and accountability purposes), this would lend itself well to that notion. One day the flat was found, the next day, it wasn't. I think that the flat may have been missed on occasion during set up as this would have been accomplished by 'feel'. If a coiner used the eyeballing method though to find the flat, slight miscalculations could have been made.

Is there not a variety (1882 CC vam-2 that is known with many degrees of rotation? If so, could this be a result of a loose set screw, allowing a die to spin? If so again, is there really sound rationale for giving numerous die state designations to this VAM? Could not the die spin back and forth rather than in one direction only?




I think that maybe this 5-7 degrees was within acceptable mint variance (going back to your thoughts on the folks who actually put the flats on the dies). Nobody would have noticed back then, (and even collectors of today probably are not going to notice) a 5-7 degree variance from one side of the coin to the other, or even bother looking for it. With a clash however, the rotation is brought into clear evidence by all factors being located on one side of the coin. (Much more obvious to see).




Not really, all glass is not inherently flat. I think that I specified 'plate glass', (if I didn't, I meant to....my mistake then). Even so, perfectly flat plate glass will not level the surface. A 'level' must be employed to level the glass so either coin fall or tilt could be achieved.

I wish that I had some of this stuff, I would like to try it. (The coin must be UNC as well).

I think that visual evidence on the coins themselves causes additional tests to be unnecessary though (In 'MY' opinion anyway).

Guys, I posted scans of this coin here in the forum about four or five years ago when I first started collecting Indian Head cents - thought I had a big dollar coin - no such luck, so I've just held onto it.
Thinking it was something worth alot (still pretty green back then) I forked over the bucks to have it graded by ANACS, but this being the only coin I've ever sent in for grading, I didn't know squat about what to ask them to do, so they just graded it and sent it back.
I sent it off to a friend out in Washington State, and he measured the rotation, and took the picture.
Might not be worth alot, but I still think it's cool.

Ralph

Cool Robbudo! Never know, the two might have come from the same set of dies.
The individual who owns the rotated dies census site has my coin listed there as R6.
I don't intend to get rid of it, but, as for value, I probably spent more having it graded than it's worth.

Ralph

Hi Ralph, I just got my 1880 out to look for marks that would identify it to a particular die. The only thing I found was that the top right part of the I in UNITED seems to be slightly broken from the main part of the 'I'. This could very well be PMD, but it's the only thing I can find. How does yours look?

And about your rotated mercuries, whats the average rotation and what's your greatest rotation?

can't really tell about the I, but there appears to be a small die break on the upper half of the first S in STATES.

As for the Mercs, most are minor - a couple might reach 40 degrees (if memory serves me correct). Can't look at the coins right now as I don't keep my collection at home - just got to be too big, and, while it's not a really high dollar collection, the value is more than I want just laying around, so I rented a box at the bank. I took scans of all my coins before taking them to the bank; however, I just scanned the obverse of each coin as well as the obverse album pages (that alone was alot of scanning) - just didn't have the gumption to scan all the reverses as well on all those circulated coins.

Ralph