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New Member
United States
33 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
It's PCI slabs.
Run.
They can't even grade coin grades properly. To tell the difference between a genuine and a counterfeit is a task almost impossible for them.
If it's a genuine 1870 yen, prices should be way much higher, even though it may be cleaned.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1091 Posts |
Well there are 18 bids now for $234.50. The seller "Guaranteed genuine" "10 days return privilege". From Singapore and return. And if it gets LOST on the return ..."worldwide registered delivery (at buyer's risk) and no refundable"
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
Meiji03 and gxseries - I have seen several PCI slabs where I agree with their grade and several others where I do not. So far, I have not seen a fake in one of their slabs, but I do collect counterfeits in slabs. This coin however is difficult to believe and I may bid on it. Did you notice they didn't even get the coin upright? That right there makes me suspect they have no idea what they are grading. toast - Mr. Barnum is proven right once again. 
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
swamperbob: There are cases when even the top tier grading companies do make mistakes on slabbing world coins. Some of the most serious aligations are coming from the Russian numismatics community as some ultra high quality counterfeit Imperial Russian commmemorative coins have been slabbed.
I personally have a commemorative ruble that is not slabbed that passed the mass, thickness, diameter test, except the color and some edging issue test. Now that's a real horror to come in the near future.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
gxseries - you have stated the case very precisely.  When it comes to rare foreign coins of several countries we are not just fighting old fashioned counterfeits that are easy to identify.  The TPG services are not set up to handle every type because their staff has less expertise than most collectors who have focused on one series for years.  The new breed of forgers are making high quality dies (usually by transfer techniques) and they are striking coins on high quality planchets made to match the originals exactly. So as their techniques improve it is getting harder to spot the forgeries.  At times, it is essentially impossible to tell from a picture and you start to use "other" clues. Color and edge techniques are two of the best that remain. Most forgeries are actually "proven" by comparing several copies and locating dings that were on the original coins. These dings transfer to all copies so they prove the case for forgery, but by the time you have purchased 3 copies of each suspect under competitive conditions - it gets prohibitively expensive.  XRF is often too costly and too difficult to get done - but even that test can be defeated. Once XRF has identified marker elements for a given coin, only coins known to exist before that test result became public knowledge are safe. Once the markers are published the counterfeiters use that knowledge to improve their work. That is why I NEVER write about marker elements I have discovered. So education of collectors and some common horse sense  becomes much more important as time goes on. If a coin is a BARGAIN  become suspicious don't get excited  because it is likely a fake.
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New Member
United States
33 Posts |
Hmmm I have been looking through Heritage Auction Websites and I've seen some Yen that Scream fake. Do they have experts run through the coins before they post all the consignments?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Meiji03 - You ask
"Hmmm I have been looking through Heritage Auction Websites and I've seen some Yen that Scream fake. Do they have experts run through the coins before they post all the consignments?"
That would surprise me. Heritage has a reputation that is very good and a forgery that is obvious from a picture would surprise me. They do (at least they claim to) have experts who attribute and catalog all coins. If the coins are still on line - could you send a link? I would like to take a peek.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
gxseries - I don't know too much about this series (originals that is) but there are several features on this die that simply do not look right to me. My bet is that the die is a steel fantasy production with an impact transfer central area. Image:  Japanese die Heritage jpg.jpg26.25 KB |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
swamperbob: Well done - you are just the best when it comes down to counterfeits. It is actually not a fantasy production but indeed there was such Trade dollar yens produced at one stage, and they are quite scarce. Obviously a counterfeiter would love to target the high ends of the market. I have emailed the Japanese mint at one stage and their response was that my die size isn't similar to what they have used. Heritage Gallery's die is awfully similar to what I have and my last verdict is: it can't be from the Japanese mint and hence a sad counterfeit. |
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New Member
United States
33 Posts |
Hey swamper, in response to Heritage, check out the very right Yen versus the very Left. The very left one is definitely real, the one on the right is questionable, the beads are too close around the dragon, the 6 looks off, the spiral around the pearl looks off. http://coins.heritageauctions.com/c...13876&src=pr |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Meiji03 - I was not able to open the larger scale picture needed to see what you are referring to.
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New Member
United States
33 Posts |
YOu have to sign up to see it, be a member. Anywho I photoshoped it for ya.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Meiji03 - Thanks for doing that. I am reluctant to sign up for too many sites because it seems every time I do - I cause problems for my PC.
Anyway I looked at the two scans. These both appear fine to me based on what I see. This series is as far as I know not fully standardized. Production levels between 1891 and 1895 are likely too high (over 72,000,000 coins) to presume individual die manufacture but too low to require that a master hub was in use. The fact that there are hub variations is proven by the existance of two 1892 varieties listed in Krause. The two coins in the picture were made 4 years appart, one on either side of the Krause "variety" so there had to be a change in hubs - perhaps more than one.
The period of manufacture 1891 and 1895 precisely brackets the ramp up in production associated with the world silver glut of 1893 and falls just before the 1897 Demonetization of the Yen by Japan. It is interesting to note that while US production rates of the Dollar dropped - Japan was increasing production. That may be why the two governments ultimately approached the situation differently.
Anyway, the variations I can see seem within reason to me and could be attributed to the use of multiple hubs. There are no telltale signs of forgery on either coin. Unless I had other facts available, I would say both are real.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,083 |
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Posted 09/24/2006 4:38 pm
Japanese die Heritage jpg.jpg
