Nice Example Of MD

This is one instance that I disagree with you. Value is left up to the one purchasing. Take toned coins for instance. Some people feel it does not add a thing to a coins value, others feel it actually takes away from the value. While there is a large contingency of people that pay a very nice premium for good examples of toning. Look at the lowball sets created using the worst examples of a coin and having it graded.

I think it is wrong to intentionally try and deceive someone into thinking there is a large investment value when there is not. If you present a coin for what it is, and let the buyer decide, without using deceptive descriptions or insinuations, then I feel as a seller you have done nothing but let the buyer decide for themselves.

Do you remember Pet Rocks? They were just a rock. Weren't they?

Coop, why the self righteous attitude? I am not talking about touting this as some "RARE" variety for hundreds of dollars. I am talking about marketing it as a nice example of what Machine Doubling looks like. for around $3.00. How in any shape, form, or fashion is this deceptive, or something I should feel guilty about? I did not manufacture this flaw. I am not stating it has value. It would be merely a conversation type piece. I have had much respect for you and Mr. Daughtrey up to this point, but on this particular point, I question it. Who says you get to decide what people should buy or collect? If I were doctoring coins, or manufacturing "rare" coins, I would feel you were both correct in what you say.

As I stated before, it is just like toning. Some like it, some don't. The example you use, "poor man's doubled die" is a good example of what I am referring to. We know it is not a doubled die. Therefore the listing is deceptive. It is being touted as an error rather than a flaw. That listing in no way shows integrity.

If they are properly identified as common, and properly identified as having nothing to do with collectible doubling, and properly explained as having no cataloged numismatic value because they are common...selling them wouldn't be a problem.

The problem comes in when people just run them as "doubled" coins and the beginners hook on and fight for them not knowing they could buy a dollar roll and find ten of them. I, for one, disagree with selling them to anyone who isn't willing to spend at least half their asking price to obtain them.

So...$3 each. You ready to buy them at $1.50 each?

I am not even sure if anyone will buy the one I shared, but if I do, $3 for something that cost me 1¢ is AWESOME.

Value is what somebody will pay on a properly described item on a given day...period. And saying it is wrong to sell them unless he buys them from you is self serving. I appreciate your expertise Chuck,but value, unlike errors or varieties is like anything...supply and demand. I am all for shutting down dishonest buyers, but Sean is not one of them and has every right to make a market if he please...it is no different than the PCGS Registry Set.

Okay, let me try to respond in such a manner that it is non-offensive and cannot be picked apart for what I did not say...

1. Machine Doubling on Lincoln cents, especially certain dates, is exceedingly common and is not worth a premium value. If ANYONE would just open a few rolls of cents and look for it they would find it.

2. Just because someone can sell something to a beginner collector for some X price does NOT mean the items are actually worth that much. It only means that a beginner collector sees something that someone went through the trouble to photograph and list on a website, so it MUST be worth something. They don't know, they don't do any research - they just buy it because it was well presented...that's all.

3. In my statement that I said they were worthless - that's just a fact. They are. BUT...it was in response to a statement that tried to turn my own words against me. I merely said that if someone wanted to establish a value for something, they have to be willing to put their money where their mouth is and be willing to buy what they sell at a price set at least 50% of what they sell for. If they are not prepared to do that, then they KNOW what they are selling isn't worth the money they are asking for it. Bottom line or not, 100% profit should be plenty for ANY business to stay alive. My question as to whether he would be willing to buy his $3 items at $1.50 was turned around on me saying I should be willing to buy them at 75 cents. NO....I am not the one who said they have value, thus my statement about them being worthless. I am not willing to buy them at all, but then again, I'm not the one trying to turn them at $3 retail. I don't sell them at all either. I give them away when I happen to have any to give away. Frankly about 99.9% of all of them I have ever seen went right back into the rolls. I don't save them.

Without a doubt, EVERYTHING I sell I would be willing to pay 50% or more (often much more) of my asking price to replace whatever I am selling. Go take a look at my site, pick something out that you have, and if I sell a comparable item on my site, I would be more than pleased to give you 50% of my retail price for your items. It's because there is an established value with some rarity involved for what I sell...and Machine Doubling DOES NOT have established market value because there IS NONE!

So, when Seal said he would be selling his examples of Machine Doubling for $3, I asked if he's willing to buy them for $1.50. I don't give a hoot whether he buys them from ME or not...but I can tell you the answer. He's not buying them from anyone because he's finding enough to keep stocked at face value. Now, what does that mean? They are very common - THAT's what it means. In truth, I would feel guilty selling them to ANYONE for $1.50 - my statement was there to prove a point, and my point was proven. Something willing to sell something at a value way higher than its actual value is not willing to pay a fair price for what they are selling.

Bottom line...if you're in business to establish a market in something that doesn't already have a market, you have to be willing to back up the value you establish by being a buyer. If I say red rocks are worth $5 a pound, I have to be willing to pay at least $2.50 a pound for them, otherwise there IS NO MARKET. See?

Oh...and typically wholesale bid on any commodity is at least 60% of their retail value...not 50%.

This is dealing in coins - commodities - not toothpaste or greeting cards. I know how coin businesses work, but you're right - I won't be trying to open a convenience store or clothing outlet any time soon. I don't know that kind of business, but I do know coins...and selling machine damaged coins for a profit sends the wrong message to new collectors. End of story.

The values on coppercoins.com, where there is no established market, are based on similar items and are the approximate values that I would base my buying on if someone came forth with a coin from that die. The different values for different grades follows an approximate curve for other die varieties of similar merit. There's a whole lot more that goes into it than just making values up on the fly. When the market actually does produce sales of such coins, I change the values to reflect actual numbers from actual sales. The value system on coppercoins.com is flawed - I have admitted to that a number of times, and it has been discussed here a number of times - but there is no easy way to fix it. If you'd like to volunteer a couple hundred hours toward the fix, I'd be more than happy to use your help.

I'm finished with this topic. If you think placing Machine Doubling on the market at a profit is a good thing to do, go ahead. I'm not here to stop you. I can tell you that from 30 years of experience watching beginners flail about not understanding or knowing the difference between those and collectible doubled dies, yet another person placing them on the market as something more than they are does nothing but muddy the waters we all work very hard to try clearing up. I have a certain painful sensitivity to Machine Doubling, because SO MUCH of my life has been spent explaining the TRUTH to people - that they are common, valueless, and VERY easy to find...and that nobody should spend money on them.

Your example is no different from hundreds and hundreds I have placed back into rolls and bags. Trust me - I know...they ARE out there everywhere. I have seen them with my own two tired eyes. I could start pulling them out of searches, and for every 1,000 coins searched I could easily pull a roll or two of them that nice or nicer.

I don't have a business degree. I am not a retail market analyst, nor am I an economics expert. I have, however, been through better than a million and a half Lincoln cents in my life, and if there's only ONE THING on this planet that I am an EXPERT on, it's Lincoln cents. While these things may look neat and have some "novelty" value to some people, they are exceedingly misunderstood, and exceedingly common. Selling them at a "value" gives the wrong message to people who don't read and don't bother understanding what they are.

The best thing - the BEST thing - you could do...sell them for $4.95 with a five page guide to telling the difference between these and collectible doubling. You could build the guide with photos (even ones that I take if you like), and print it on any copier or printer - it doesn't have to be fancy - just educational. Then at least you're doing a service to the community, and selling the coins as educational tools, not as collectibles.