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1933 5 Cent Folded Rim Burr/Finn - Need Help Understanding

 
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Valued Member

United States
214 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2014  10:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Can anyone help me learn more about how this "folded rim burr" occurred? From what I've read, some people think it is caused by the hammer die pushing the planchet (perhaps slightly too large of diameter) into the collar causing friction on the edge of the rim forcing a burr/finn to raise on the reverse side. I'm okay up to this point, but how does the burr/finn then get folded/struck into the reverse? Thoughts? Other ideas?

Valued Member
United States
214 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just received a 1936 5 cent in the mail in a low grade which exhibits the remnants of the same minting problem. It can be seen above "CA" in CANADA with the naked eye but there are remnants of the folded burr/finn in several other places.









It would appear that the finn/burr wears off during circulation. Is it possible that the coin is struck twice, with the second strike hitting the already formed rim on the inside and pushing down a thin layer of metal that flattens out but does not fuse with the field?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1625 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Probable issue with the rimming machine? Very nice!
Valued Member
Canada
71 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shark38ksw to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could see the S in Cents showing under. Nice.
Valued Member
United States
214 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did George V 5 cents go through a rimming machine given they have a smooth edge?
Valued Member
Canada
284 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add castor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi aswag


If you want a better understanding of this phenome "Folded ring bure", there is an explanation here but they are in French.


http://numicanada.com/forum/viewtop...?f=23&t=4175
Valued Member
United States
214 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2014  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Merci Castor! I especially liked the explanation of how a blank becomes a planchet -- (1. punching of blank, 2. burnishing, annealed, cleaned, dried 3. rimming/cordonnage).

http://www.numicanada.com/forum/vie...7884&start=0

I hadn't realized that George V 5 cents also went through a rimming step (before being struck). That helps explain how the burr formed during blanking is folded over. That said, I still don't full understand how the fold always ends up on the hammer side of Canadian coins? I would have thought the extra metal would fuse during the strike but I guess these examples are evidence that it doesn't.

Does anyone think the 1933 example that I posted should get a premium valuation for this error or should it be considered a problem coin?


Pillar of the Community
Canada
4697 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2014  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Check thedollarman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add thedollarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hate to rain on your parade but what I'm seeing is just the plastic over the edge.
feel free to call me Will. I'm a 19 year old collector from the GTA area of Ontario.

my PMs are always open, whether you have a question or simply wish to talk.
Valued Member
Canada
484 Posts
 Posted 10/01/2014  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob Levi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gotta know,was it the plastic.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts
 Posted 10/01/2014  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alexer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Blanking burrs, rimming mill causes them to fold over then the striking die's finish the job. IMO
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1625 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2014  07:04 am  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is not plastic.
Valued Member
United States
214 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2014  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The mint's production problem with folded rim burrs and George V 5 cents occurred in 1925 too.

Valued Member
United States
214 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2014  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aswag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sad to report that thedollarman is correct that the apparent folded rim burr in the PCGS holders is a burr of plastic causing a shadow. I used an 8x loup and looked sideways in the slab and am sure it is plastic.

I just couldn't find a similar problem (to the same 360 degree extent) in NGC slabbed or ICCS coins. So I double checked. Another of life's learning experiences...
Valued Member
Canada
484 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2014  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob Levi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to hear that. I chuckle a bit but only cause its a mistake I would have made. We live and learn.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1855 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2015  08:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I strongly doubt that upsetting (rimming) has anything to do with the formation of a thin apron on planchets. Degree of upset certainly varies, but even the most strongly upset planchets fail to show an apron. All they show is an exaggerated proto-rim. The apron is most likely generated by some other mechanical device (goodness knows, the planchets pass through a lot of them on their way to the press).

I've seen two other cents similar to the one in the Coin World article. So it's not a one-off event.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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