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1820 8 Reales With Lots Of Edges

 
 
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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 05/13/2015  11:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add RockyRoad to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Well here's a little gem that needs some serious discussion. We're a little overweight at 27.3g with what looks like a tapered planchet edge from both faces of the coin. As you can see, the edge pattern appears to have been applied twice. The patterns almost mirror each other except for a slight offset. There is a strange blank section on the edge that appears finely tooled, located between the A and N in Hispan.

My first thought at seeing the edge was that two cast halves had been somehow assembled. But.

Under 10x everything tells me this coin was struck and not cast. It looks to have been dipped or run through some solution in the past, and there are no hairlines. The reverse shows a bit of cartwheel and luster in the right light. The obverse is just bright white with the light field scratches and the ones in front of his eye.

I obtained this coin from Chile and the member of the Chilean Numismatic Society whose collection it came from maintains that the coin is original and was never cleaned during the 40 - 50 years it was in his collection.

Is it regal? What says the community?

1820 8-Reales album
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2015  12:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a new one on me. The blank clearly was edged twice. The un-edged section appears to have stopped the edge progress on both passes. The camber of the two edgings (peaked at center) could mean the blank was flipped over when it was re-inserted.

I would not expect the coin to be a counterfeit unless the Specific Gravity is very low. There was no market for silver counterfeits from Lima so unless the coin is below 700 fine the profit margin was not likely to support the creation of counterfeits executed as well as this one appears.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
235 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2015  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PatAR to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Weren't the planchets being punched out rather than manually trimmed by this time? I am familiar with Isabel II era examples with extra material left from the planchet punching process that could extend up from the rim, but generally much thinner and not on the edge itself. How would that rectangular bit end up on the edge of a finished planchet?

Any insights would be appreciated.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2015  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The standard practice (based on Mexico City and the observable results on coins) was to use a cookie cutter like press that punched blanks out of silver strips. A piece of silver on the edge as appears here indicates a broken die in the press. Either the circular shaft die or the circular hole through which the blank passed (also a die) had to be broken. Such a blanking press would not have remained in service long because the blanks would be overweight, they require extra work to adjust and they clog an edger.

If this type of error was seen on a normal Mexican issue it would strongly suggest the coin was bogus. At Lima, quite frankly much more study is needed to be 100% certain. There are very few Lima contemporary Class 1 counterfeits and there are absolutely no confirmed Class 2 varieties. So as a counterfeit it would be rare. As a genuine coin it would be a rare minting error. Either way good news.

Being overweight is absolutely expected.

One comment I missed on my first reading was ...
Quote:
There is a strange blank section on the edge that appears finely tooled, located between the A and N in Hispan.


I missed "finely tooled." In my book I discussed methods used by people to remove silver from circulating coins. One method I have seen described is drilling several holes into the edge of a coin in a fan shape. The silver removed is replaced with a lead tin alloy that approximates the density of silver. The only tell-tale feature is the damage to a section of the rim. So I guess my question is what do you mean by finely tooled and can you take a photograph or make a sketch to explain what you mean?

As of right now, while I have heard about this method of silver theft for over 50 years, I have yet to actually see an example of this having been done. So if you have one of those (where the point of entry was through a rim cud of sorts, that would be even more rare.

It is certainly interesting and may represent a rare case of a bad blank being used or a rarer method of silver theft being employed.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2015  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RockyRoad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob: Glad I can offer something challenging that hasn't been seen yet.

Perhaps I made a poor choice of words regarding "finely tooled" as I was only referring to the gouges and lines that are showing in the photo. It's almost as if someone intentionally worked over that spot with a small chisel or hand tool of some kind. Maybe the marks are just where the equipment jammed up when it hit the high spot on the edge. Hard to know for sure.

I had time to take an SG today and looks like a solid 10.3
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2015  05:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, lovely and very interesting coin !
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